Author Topic: 2.0 Diplomat running issues  (Read 586 times)

chrisP

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2.0 Diplomat running issues
« on: July 16, 2017, 03:48:27 PM »
Hello everyone, before jumping in and expecting all of you wonderful members to help me, I thought I'd better introduce myself.  :)

I'm Chris from Kent and I own two Diplomat 2.0's (1 auto & 1 manual) as well as a few 60s/70s Vauxhalls. Well it's my everyday manual that's giving me absolute headaches trying to solve a problem on. I've owned this one since '99 when it had 89k and two owners, it now has 274k on the original engine / box / axle and even clutch. This is what it has developed;

About two moths ago I was ten miles into a journey on a motorway when it suddenly died and instantly recovered - when it did this the engine management light came on and the rev counter dropped to zero. It did this a few more times before going back to normal. It then did exactly the same on the journey home.

My neighbour is an auto electrician and he said 'crank shaft sensor'. I booked it in with my local garage and they fitted a pattern one - then it wouldn't even start. We got it running but it was popping through the air box. I changed the plugs, cap & rotor, and swapped the coil & air mass sensor from my auto. Still rough, so I asked them to get anther crank shaft sensor, same again, so we ordered one from Vauxhall. 124 later....same again. Now, this is what it does (I've had to have it recovered to my house now) turn the key, starts & idles, slowly increase revs with throttle and before it reaches 2000 rpm it almost dies with an instant engine management light, then the light goes out and the car returns to idle.

I am at a loss as to what to do next, please oh knowledgeable masters, help me!   :-\

chris

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2017, 05:20:17 PM »
Hello Chris

I dont know much about the 2.0 cars but by far the most common running issue cause on Carltons seems to the the fuel pump relay.

Its not just a fuel pump relay, its quite a bit more complex than that and has the ability to cause all sorts of problems.

For the cost I'd be trying a new one (or swap between your cars).

It seems to me that the most common misdiagnosis on any car is crankshaft sensor, so often blamed first but rarely at fault.

Have you read the fault codes? If you dont have a reader there is an easy way to do it using just a paperclip, have a quick search on here for paperclip test. I cant remember the details as I dont do it that way myself.

If you get some fault codes post them here.

Note that if its not running it will appear to have a crankshaft sensor fault but that just means that the sensor isnt sensing anything, not that its faulty.

Dave the Builder

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 09:46:48 AM »
!00% agree with what Chris has posted  :)
try the fuel relay (and while your there ,check ecu pins are not wet/corroded if your relay is driver foot well rt kick panel)
Also worth checking the cts (coolant temp sensor ,the 2 wire one by alternator)
my 4 banger runs like a 3 legged dog with a duff cts.  cuts out, no power,picks up ,dies, missfires  ::)
make sure all engine earth points are clean
worth beefing up the earth strap between alternator and block and make a nice new earth for the coil
the connection on the side of fuel tank can be ropey to the fuel pump
hope you find the gremlin in the system  ;)
If the above post contains spelling mistakes / grammatical errors / poor use of the quote function / a very weak retort, or is generally shyte; it's because I'm feked on a cocktail of drugs,homebrew and carb cleaner.sorry

chrisP

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2017, 08:19:26 PM »
Thanks guys, firstly I think I should've added the following (it's been going on so long I forgot what I've done) I had the ECU fail around 2002 and bought one from a scrap yard - fitted it and job done - so over the years when Carlton 4 cylinders came in my local scrappy I bought them. So I ended up with three and the dead one, I've tried all three good ones, I also fitted a new fuel pump relay. Funny you mention the coolant temp sender Dave, as the garage who had been trying to suss the fault said the exact same thing today - they had a long-term Carlton owner who took his car there regularly say that gave him issues. Is it the little job with a blue end and two-pin push-on connector?

Forgive my ignorance, but do Carltons have ignition module amplifiers? It's just something I found on ebay and was listed for Carlton among others. I can't find anything under the bonnet that looks like one though.

I've gotten so dismayed with it I've actually booked the red auto in for an MOT Thursday (off the road 3 years) and told them do whatever it needs - the exhaust manifold is blowing for starters and I think the O/S rear spring mount will need welding. Oh well, get  s it back on the road eh?

Thanks Chris too, I appreciate all the help I can get.  :)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 08:36:24 PM by chrisP »

0795omega

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2017, 10:19:46 PM »
sorry to hijack your thread chrisP but if its of any consolation to you mine started doing this the day after it came back from having its ecu refurbed! they didnt do fuel pump relay though,even though i specifically asked them to!! so am going to get one and fit it hoping thats it? good luck with getting the auto back on the road hope it doesnt need too much? know how you feel a little fault can ruin a great car!

Dave the Builder

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 01:23:10 AM »
issues. Is it the little job with a blue end and two-pin push-on connector?
yes clicky link


Forgive my ignorance, but do Carltons have ignition module amplifiers? It's just something I found on ebay and was listed for Carlton among others. I can't find anything under the bonnet that looks like one though.

not mk 2 or mk 3 carltons with electronic ignition,ecu, fuel injection
amp module is for the older carlton/astra/cav
many ebay listings are completely wrong parts /model wise

another thought, did you get the correct dissy cap , there are 2 different ones , look the same, terminals are different
and even if you did, worth checking each plug for good spark ,due to the fiddly fitting position of the cap by bulkhead,
that center carbon contact/brush can come out during the faf of removing the skin from one's knuckles whilst standing on ones head , tightening torx bolts  :P

Good luck with the mot
Auto  ::)  ok as a stop gap ,till the "stick shift"beast is returned to service  ;)

stick shift definition  clicky   ;D

If the above post contains spelling mistakes / grammatical errors / poor use of the quote function / a very weak retort, or is generally shyte; it's because I'm feked on a cocktail of drugs,homebrew and carb cleaner.sorry

chrisP

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2017, 04:45:30 PM »
It never rains it pours. The auto failed miserably on rot underneath, and sills, and inner wings. Going to have to say farewell to it sadly .  :'(

0795omega

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2017, 11:05:30 PM »
oh no so sorry to here that bud! hope things pick up real soon for you.

Dave the Builder

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2017, 11:18:10 PM »
That's a shame  :'(
you could make something positive from from the loss
assuming the auto was running fine mechanically ....
that would make a nice donor to sort out the issue with the manual
air flow meter,fuel relay,coolant temp sensor,icv, throttle sensor,evap purge valve, lambda ,fuel pump , fuel regulator,even ecu if you link the start inhibit pin out.battery,alternator
not what you want to hear , but at least the manual would live to fight another day
If the above post contains spelling mistakes / grammatical errors / poor use of the quote function / a very weak retort, or is generally shyte; it's because I'm feked on a cocktail of drugs,homebrew and carb cleaner.sorry

DKT1

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 10:19:07 AM »
I've just had the same on mine, done the head up, new cam shaft etc, replaced the crank sensor as the connection/plug was broken (held together with a cable tie) bought a pattern part, seemed OK, ran OK, until I went up the road, every time went to pull away quickly the engine would die, management light comes on then engine picks up again (scary on roundabouts), bought a new Bosch crank sensor, problem gone, runs better/smoother as well.
Carlton 2.0ltr Diamond Est

0795omega

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2017, 01:32:53 PM »
thats nice to know cant beat the genuine bosch stuff,hard at times finding it now though!

DKT1

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2017, 03:52:37 PM »
It was twice as dear as the pattern part but worked twice as good, at 80 at least I know it should work.
The pattern was all plastic the Bosch is stainless steel like the old one was, looks good too :D
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chrisP

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2017, 07:09:32 PM »
That's interesting DKD1 - I fitted a genuine GM ones and it made no difference. Where do you find the Bosch ones?
If anyone needs anything from a Diplomat let me know - I'd rather it helped other cars.  ;)

If gy any chance the wiring connector to the Crak sensor plug is iffy could i c Or is that a no no?

DKT1

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2017, 10:47:36 PM »
I found one even cheaper on Ebay under 60 ;D
The Bosch part No, is 0261210030, it also fits a Saab 9000 as well as loads of vauxhalls/Opels.
On checking the plastic one, I found the resistance was different, (can't remember what it was now? but higher) but that could make the difference as to why it plays up on higher revs maybe?
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0795omega

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2017, 01:39:38 PM »
ive just ordered one for mine garage fitted a pattern part one last week when refurbed the ecu and now this fault of flat spot/management light on then off and engine picks up again has reared its ugly head! looks like carltons favour genuine bosch stuff!

chrisP

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 05:27:02 PM »
Sorry for dragging this thread up again, but I've an update.

Firstly does the rule of 'red cap' = 'red rotor' not apply to late Carlton's, as my two have black rotors / terracotta caps.
Anyway, my auto-electrician neighbour has been tinkering with the car and found out that if you start it and leave it to idle, it eventually starts to misfire with the sound of a storm-chasers' electrical storm emitting from the cap. Basically the misfire is definitely inside the cap. Any suggestions? By the way, the red Diplomat is still up for dismantling, I'm happy for Carlton owners to have whatever they want from the car if it helps others stay on the road - all I'm keeping is the engine, wiring, screen and rear doors.

Dave the Builder

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 03:03:21 PM »
Not heard of 'red cap' = 'red rotor before
the 2 cap difference i know of is one has m4 plug lead terminals
the other being the old din ? type plugs
why not just use the dissy and arm off the auto
or at least compare ,check the carbon brush has not gone walkies
If the above post contains spelling mistakes / grammatical errors / poor use of the quote function / a very weak retort, or is generally shyte; it's because I'm feked on a cocktail of drugs,homebrew and carb cleaner.sorry

chrisP

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 07:08:51 PM »
I did that Dave. I'm thinking of replacing the cam and housing as a desperation move.  :-\

Dave the Builder

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 09:36:04 AM »
That would be a cylinder head off job and unless you had loads of end float on the old cam(which i have never seen ) ,
I don't see what you'd achieve ?
have you tried a new coolant temp sensor (the 2 wire one by alternator )?
if the miss fire only happens when warm
have you cleaned up all earth points and beefed up the alternator to head earth strap ?
are the spark plugs showing signs of missfire ? tried swapping them ? run it in the dark and see if there is stray sparks at dissy or leads.
If the above post contains spelling mistakes / grammatical errors / poor use of the quote function / a very weak retort, or is generally shyte; it's because I'm feked on a cocktail of drugs,homebrew and carb cleaner.sorry

chrisP

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 05:29:42 PM »
I'm going to try the 'running in the dark' idea tonight. Plugs, rotor, leads, cap, temp sensor, fuel relay and ECU (used) all newly fitted.

DKT1

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 09:04:52 PM »
Coil, Crank Sensor, not much else left???
Carlton 2.0ltr Diamond Est

Dave the Builder

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 10:13:00 PM »
lambda sensor duff can cause ecu map to overfuel when hot
If the above post contains spelling mistakes / grammatical errors / poor use of the quote function / a very weak retort, or is generally shyte; it's because I'm feked on a cocktail of drugs,homebrew and carb cleaner.sorry

chrisP

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2017, 09:44:20 PM »
Sorry to keep dragging up this thread, but I still have issues even though the following has been done;
Replaced the following - plugs, leads, rotor, cap, coil, air mass sensor (I think it's called? the box on the air filter) crank shaft sensor x3, cold start sender (the blue plug?) fuel pump relay and filter, disconnected the exhaust in front of the cat, and 2 ECU's.

The car starts and idles fine, you rev the car and at 1800 rpm it splutters, the eng management light comes on, the revs settle down, the eng management light goes out. If you try to rev the car hard it rises and drops like you're pressing & releasing the throttle even under full pedal. We also ran new wires to the ECU from the crank shaft sensor.

I've run this car for over 170,000 miles (on top of the 89k when I bought it in '99) and this is the longest its been off the road and is getting very frustrating. I appreciate it's hard to offer suggestions without seeing a car and only going on descriptions on line, but I miss it daily and have run out of ideas. I will happily pay to get this sorted, but other than GM6 spares who are about 300 miles from me I have no idea where to goor what to do next. By the way, I've mentioned this before, but the diagnostic only throws up 'crank shaft sensor' every time the eng man light comes on.  :-\

Apologies for any poorly described parts but I'm used to working on and maintaining my 60's & 70's fleet of Vauxhalls with points, carbs and wind-up windows.  :D
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 09:46:44 PM by chrisP »

0795omega

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2017, 11:34:19 AM »
had exactly this with mine after garage fitted a cheapo crank sensor while doing some other jobs,fitted a genuine bosch one dearer but worth it and cured the fault!!  seems carltons like genuine bosch parts good luck!

DKT1

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Re: 2.0 Diplomat running issues
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2017, 07:11:58 PM »
Yep! had the same here, cheap crank sensor.
On a hard pull away I would get engine light, rough running then pick up, engine light off and run fine until the next time.
Changed the sensor for a Bosch/stainless steel one and it now runs perfect.
90213515 is the part number and it will be at least 50, don't buy it unless it's a Bosch.
It is the same sensor as fitted to some Saab 9000's, so may be cheaper if you can cross reference the Bosch Part No, (0261210030)
Carlton 2.0ltr Diamond Est