Author Topic: Grundig 4870 - surface fault  (Read 18565 times)

man of kent

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Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« on: June 01, 2012, 03:21:25 PM »
Fitted a grundig 4870 to the Diamond but a few problems:-

Selecting a disc from the 10 stack and its reading 'surface'. Tried changing the spring over from vertical to horizontal mounting a few times but no go. Its trying because it sequences the discs and gets as far as selecting 01 recording of any disc and you hear the 10 stack clicking followed by 'surface'.

Plays a tape but cannot get the tape out! Now stuck with no discs or radio, just the tape thats in it. Sliding the eject switch does nothing. I think this is a mechanical misfunction rather than electrical ??.

Any comments please before I try stripping it down. Has been out of a car for some years but I was informed it was working ok before.
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PeterC

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2012, 03:36:54 PM »
Tape stuck in happened to me. It was something stupid and I cannot remember what. I will leave it in my brain so don't do anything rash. I think I was pushing the wrong button or button combination. When I am home I will stare at it.

CD changer reporting surface. How long have you left is to warm up ?. It might be wet optics if its been unused for ages. If its dirty then try a CD cleaner disc. BUT use on that has cleaner liquid dripped onto it (less agressive) and DONT leave it in for too long.
1993 2.0 CD(X)i Auto Estate (Rioja Red very little tin worm & reasonable paint).
RIP - 1992 2.0 CDXi Manual Estate (Spectral Blue with far too much tin worm, now only parts).

Old age means wondering: Do I really have to struggle to become an expert in something I might never need to do again.

man of kent

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2012, 04:15:57 PM »
Thanks for that Pete. Will keep trying it and with summer heat it may 'dry out'. Thanks for the cable. Got it down under the o/s sill trim and the trim snapped back in ok. Murph routed the cable behind the instrument panel as i'm limited on me twisting around. What a job. Behind the panel is packed solid and we couldn't find an easy way through. The instrument pod had to come out and the cable routed over the steering column. Murph said it was worse on mine because of the air con.

There is plenty of room under the estate floor to drill out the four dimples to fit the 10 stack frame. The offside front dimple has about 50mm clear under and the other three unlimited.

One of the press buttons was stuck in but was able to pull it out a little to free it.

Just need to get the b....y thing working.............Nice sound from the tape but boring the same tunes! No doubt I will get there. back to the Pioneer if I have to.

ps Grundig withdrawal tongs from Halfords 5.99. Faint! Told them I didn't want to buy the place.
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Murph

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2012, 04:24:20 PM »
Try a local motor factors - sometimes much cheaper there.

kevinfourlegs

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2012, 09:34:20 PM »
I've given up on the Grundig 10 cd changer. Original one played up so I sourced another and that has gone tits up. Reverted back to radio/cd head unit.

When I fitted the changer, I routed the blue lead the way Vauxhall did it. I removed it out of the Diplomat, so I knew how it was done correctly.
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PeterC

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2012, 09:42:41 PM »
I have been trying to get some relays etc out from behind the dash. Took me ages to spot them but I can see some and feel others but they are in tight. So I know its tight.

Have not got home yet but I think the eject is an electric button ? - they can be dozey those buttons. Or maybe the play button is stuck on - can you reverse direction (I seem to remember this was the clue that lead to my answer). Try someone elses face off. Its in my brain somewhere.
1993 2.0 CD(X)i Auto Estate (Rioja Red very little tin worm & reasonable paint).
RIP - 1992 2.0 CDXi Manual Estate (Spectral Blue with far too much tin worm, now only parts).

Old age means wondering: Do I really have to struggle to become an expert in something I might never need to do again.

kevinfourlegs

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2012, 09:51:58 PM »
I  think the removeable faceplate is coded to each headunit? Anybody know if this is tue?
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Murph

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2012, 10:02:20 PM »
Nope.
Tried two on my old one and both worked.

man of kent

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2012, 07:01:01 AM »
Got the tape out. The tape eject button is the small one disc-. Not very logical. What I thought was the tape eject slider is actually for the removable face which should have popped out but didn't so this confused me. So I have the radio back. It does pay to read the instruction booklet! Now to get a disc head cleaner and hope this is what the 'surface' readout means. We originally thought it was to do with the changer being flat but that cannot be right otherwise it would not work on a hill. I hope 'surface' means the head needs cleaning?

 The readout sequence shown is the correct disc number and 01 comes up as the first tune, followed by clicking from the changer, then '01 00 00' and then 'surface'. So its selecting the disc ok. Dont know what 01 00 00 means.

Can anybody tell me where the slits are in the carpet for the CD changer. The carpet must come out from under the changer frame to get to the spare wheel. I assume there are two slits across the carpet so the carpet slips under the changer frame. Correct?
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melinx

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2012, 08:19:56 AM »
The readout sequence shown is the correct disc number and 01 comes up as the first tune, followed by clicking from the changer, then '01 00 00' and then 'surface'. So its selecting the disc ok. Dont know what 01 00 00 means.

If for instance it read '01 00 01' that would indicate that one second of track 1 had been played.

Are you aware of the link below ? it was posted by 'therealeasterbunny' some years ago ;)

http://www.therealeasterbunny.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/carltons/grundig/grundig_4871_4870_v100.doc

man of kent

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2012, 10:58:43 AM »
Thanks Mel. Did a search but did not find this. Quite informative and does refer to 'surface' as a fault - "incorrectly inserted disc, turn disc over". Both Murph and I have inserted the disc correctly and even tried it upside down with the same readout. Sounds to me that the head or laser is just not reading the disc as being there. So is it worth stripping down the changer? Can you clean the laser with something? I know they are delicate. The other possibility is misalignment of the laser relative to the disc which i've found to be a problem with DVD players.

Bought a CD head cleaner but that doesn't work as the disc will not revolve because it doesn't think its there.

Murph, you mentioned a CD cleaner with a brush on the edge of the disc? The one I got from Maplin looks like a normal CD with  what looks like a small piece of fabric sticking out half way across the track. If the one you are talking about has a brush on the outer edge, is it more likely to clean the laser? It would of course only do this if the disc is revolving which I dont know.

Could it be a cable problem and the signal is not getting to the instrument panel unit that a disc is there?

Could do what Kevin did. Give up and put the Pioneer back in. Shame really as I've sprayed the changer frame and bought the removal tool and CD laser cleaner.

Stumped at the moment.
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PeterC

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2012, 12:22:11 PM »
Dont bother cutting the carpet. Carpet has two slits that line up with the cage mounting bolts. Slits are about 4Cm wide one slit left to right for the forward pair of boltsand one slit left to right for the rear pair of bolts. They are not exactly the same on the two cars and look to be cut to no diagram. I seldom succeeded in sliding the carpet back under the changer so the carpet lay up the side of the changer cage all the time. Benefit was that nothing in the boot clanked against the side of the changer tray that way. The hole in the carpet for the air leveling never lined up anyway on either car. So I would not bother cutting the carpet.

The CD might be spinning - its hard to tell. Might be worth trying someones working changer as that would eliminate faulty wires, fuses and relays.
1993 2.0 CD(X)i Auto Estate (Rioja Red very little tin worm & reasonable paint).
RIP - 1992 2.0 CDXi Manual Estate (Spectral Blue with far too much tin worm, now only parts).

Old age means wondering: Do I really have to struggle to become an expert in something I might never need to do again.

melinx

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2012, 01:19:26 PM »
Can you clean the laser with something?

I have used a cotton bud soaked in Isopropyl Alcohol to clean off the slightly cloudy film that forms on the lens in front of the Laser diode.

Maybe a silly suggestion and you have already tried it but I have found in the past that I needed to smear washing up liquid on a cd and then wash with water to remove the film of contamination that forms on it; the results have often been very effective.

I wish you good luck getting it running ;)

To quote my original post in "Updating the Grundig ICE" : -

"About a week ago, the 10 disc changer stopped working and I found that the disc was not rotating

Reviewing my options I decided that the fault could lie in the head unit, the control unit buried behind the dash, or the CD changer unit itself."

That was the point that I finally decided to scrap the whole system :'(

« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 01:31:04 PM by melinx »

kevinfourlegs

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2012, 02:00:37 PM »
What happened to both my changers was the changers playing certain tracks then may repeat some or all, deprnding what mood it was in. Both did this and that was before and after using a cd laser cleaner. I emptied the cartridge and put the cleaning disc in slot one. Heard the motor in the changer working. I then switched on the head unit and it began to 'play' the options on the menu. So something was working. We have many cds and they all work in the hifi, dvd player, games console. The discs were cleaned with a proper cd cleaner, before inserting them in the cartridge. I am guessing the fault is due to age?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 02:05:14 PM by kevinfourlegs »
Everyone knows that rwd is the proper way. Some refuse to admit it.

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man of kent

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2012, 02:02:28 PM »
Looks like the same problem Mel. Took the cover off, the CD's are loading but the disc is not spinning. Tried the usual taping but no go. Strangely as the CD starts to withdraw the disc spins a few times. Maybe this is electro magnetic rather than the motor doing it.

From what I can see there are two motors, a larger one to select the discs and presumably the smaller one to spin the disc but just cannot see inside to see how it works. Maybe there is a drive belt?

Looks like its had it.

Interesting find is that dependent upon whether the unit is flat or vertical, and moving the anti shake springs, I finally got the 'surface' error to disappear. It would appear that the 'surface' error is also for the mounting location and angle plus the fault guide saying the disc is upside down. It no longer reads  01 00 00, just the disc number and track 01 but the CD is not spinning.
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melinx

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2012, 02:06:47 PM »
This fault happenex in two changers, so I am guessing that it may well be down to age?

Maybe true, it only happened to mine when I was over 60 ::)  ;D

kevinfourlegs

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2012, 02:38:04 PM »
D'oh!! Give me strength  ;D ;D  I should have known  ;D ;D
Everyone knows that rwd is the proper way. Some refuse to admit it.

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nightmare

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2012, 07:37:22 PM »
So how's it going?
Got it fixed yet?
Easy going untill PUSHED!!!!

man of kent

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2012, 07:18:49 AM »
No go. Tried warming it. Partially stripped it. Discs are chosen and slotted in ok but there is a constant click from inside. Couple of small red lights on inside. Tried cleaning what i think is the 'magic eye' or whatever you call it. Also tried about 30 times but have given up.

I do know it was fully working before it was taken out of a Senator but may have been in a shed and damp.

Hope to get another some time. I have all the wiring and frame ready for it in place.
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PeterC

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2012, 09:56:57 AM »
From my patchy memory of HiFi. CD/Tape/Record decks can have a drive belt from the motor OR better ones are "direct Drive". I have encountered drive belts that have decayed and snapped/loosened. Which is why I was disgusted that manufacturers started introducing belts as an alternative to timing chains.


If there is (was) a belt then it is usually quite small. Usually about 2mm square cross section. So have a look for some pulleys usually very approximately 15 to 35mm diameter. You might find a loose belt or a belt lying around.

As far as unreadale CDs go my experience is that a quite damaged CD will read fine in a good quality CD reader. But a cheap/budget CD ready will fail to figure it out. Better CD decks have more processing power to do error correction on, they also have better lasers. Not sure where the Grundig fits in the quality scale though.

Another point is people get less joy with - er shall we say backup copies of CDs made on their computer. The Grundig might be old enough to not recognise newer CD writing techniques from PCs. Same goes for DVDs btw - though not in relation to the 4870 which would not know what to do with a DVD !.

Might be worth getting it looked at by a good HiFi repairer as the problem is probably not dissimilar to that of home HiFi. Difficult these days as we are now in a disposable world, that is apart from the planet itself !.

EDIT - just bumped into this. Did not know this and is it relevent. Seems could be if you have transfered the CD player from a saloon to an estate ?. Look at reply number 2 second paragraph.
http://totalcarlton.com/forums/index.php/topic,14007.msg117855.html#msg117855
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 10:08:08 AM by PeterC »
1993 2.0 CD(X)i Auto Estate (Rioja Red very little tin worm & reasonable paint).
RIP - 1992 2.0 CDXi Manual Estate (Spectral Blue with far too much tin worm, now only parts).

Old age means wondering: Do I really have to struggle to become an expert in something I might never need to do again.

Murph

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2012, 11:05:47 AM »
Covered that Pete.
I used to use computer generated backups in mine just fine, and we tried original disks which were in good order.

It does sound like a drive belt issue.

man of kent

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2012, 12:31:40 PM »
The CD's are professional. On the grundig, you can change a balancing spring for use on a horizontal or vertical fixing. I've tried both a few times. I've had the case off and inspected inside and I cannot see any drive belt or the remains of one that has fallen out. There appear to be gears driving the disc with a small motor and the discs turn. Its a reading problem. tried gently cleaning what I think is the sensor.

The fault code for 'surface fault' just says incorrect fitting of the CD. So it could be something to do with horizontal or vertical fitting but should work on one of these but doesn't.

The answer lies with something to do with the clicking the unit makes as it tries to read the disc. Nothing is moving whilst it clicks except the disc which revolves smoothly. I've tried manually winding the reading head to a different position on the discs but the same clicking. It tries one disc, clicks, rejects and continues to select all the discs and clicking on all of them. its not a loud click, more perhaps a tick.

Alastair informs me that the unit was working fine when taken out and left for a long time. It was in a senator horizontally mounted. Warming it and contnuous tests over a number of weeks has done nothing to change the problem. Given it a gentle shaking and thumping also. No change.

Can I discount the head and cable being the problem? Radio and tape work ok.
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PeterC

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2012, 01:29:01 PM »
Brainstorming perhaps but you are just now making me think it is going through all of the discs reading and learning them PRIOR to actually playing one. I expect you have tried one disc on its own ?, otherwise try that, maybe one dud disc in the set of ten is spoiling the whole show. Try one disc in each slot just incase one slot is dud (unlikely).

The sensor iirc is a little glass bead on a track that goes from centre to outer of disc btw. Dont force it along though.

I think you have tried a shorter wire already ?. But as an idea perhaps the wire has to be the right way round ?. Easiest way to check is try in another car where everything works. Sorry - I think you might already have tried that but rather waste my breath incase it helps.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 01:30:39 PM by PeterC »
1993 2.0 CD(X)i Auto Estate (Rioja Red very little tin worm & reasonable paint).
RIP - 1992 2.0 CDXi Manual Estate (Spectral Blue with far too much tin worm, now only parts).

Old age means wondering: Do I really have to struggle to become an expert in something I might never need to do again.

man of kent

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Re: Grundig 4870 - surface fault
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2012, 06:03:43 PM »
I've tried one disc by itself and a few. It seems to select each one and when it comes to the end, ticking and surface appears on the readout. Change the wire round? Should this make any difference?

I agree another unit to check it is best. I'm hoping to have one to test at Billing.
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