Sill and Arch Replacement.

[carltonman]

I am thinking of replacing the both myself. Have MIG welder etc. Witch is the best place to start. Sill is so bad half has gone leaving inner open to elements. Do i replace the sill first then the arch or vise versa?
PS - Have never done this before, but better start the car this year or it will be yet another one less.............Any advice/tips please pass on.

[monzaiain]

Not 100% on this one,cause i have never done both on these cars,but,with the Monza i always did the arches first,then put the sill over the top....its easier to cover and if you put the bottom end of the arch panel over the sill it sits too proud and is a bu**er to try hide!
I would guess it would be the same on the Carlton.....
Remember to do the inner sill first to make sure the outer sill gets welded to the inner properly or you will loose the strength

[2PAC]

I would do both together and dont fit the all thereplacement pannels.
Cut them down and use only what you need.

[Pedro]

I'd fit the complete panels - cos sooner or later you'll wish you had. It's a Carlton after all!!!!!

I'd go for the wheelarch then sill, but it's not essential to do it that way - depends on how good you get it to look before painting. Then get it all Waxoyled inside.

[2PAC]

Why cut good steel and make the blending process harder???

[Pedro]

Anyway, that's how I would do it, I would..................so there!

[monzaiain]

I think what CarltonMan meant was which order to do them in,i took it that he was going to do both but was asking which panel to do first...i.e the arch first then the sill or vice versa

if you do the arch first then the bottom edge of the arch can be tucked in behind the new sill,will give a better finish,(and the rear of the arch will be behind the bumper.)

Use the whole panel complete,i know what 2pac means but,if your arch has say 3 or 4 different rust areas all around it,and the sill has bad bits,front middle and rear then you are makng it harder for yourself because you then have several areas to try and fill and blend together

If you use the whole sill then most of the welding will be hidden anyway,as it will be under the car on the bottom edge, under the plastic step covers etc, then you only have the area at the rear arch and the area around the centre point at the doors.The arch itself is not seen at the front edge when the rear door is closed and the straight part of the arch has a trim over it too,the rear part is hidden behind the bumper.

I would say the most important part of doing the sills is the inner sill.....if that is not done correctly then the outer sill has nothing to weld on to thus loosing the strength...the sill will be on the car but not really part of the cars structure if you see what i mean..

Thats how i would do it anyway
hope that helps

[irishjohn]

found a good site with alot of info for diy bodywork and welding  http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/sills.htm

its not carlton specific but my god, if he can replace them on this rusty aston i should have no trouble on the carlton.

[carltonman]

thanks for the reply folks. The thing that worries me most is welding above the straight length above the arch on the main panel without destroying it......

[Murph]

Start at one end with a spot weld, then another half way along, then one at the other end.

Then put one halfway between two of them and keep doing so until the whole length is done.

By doing only spots you will decrease the chance of warping due to overheating.

[monzaiain]

Carltonman....

RE the arches....

Get a decent bonding agent for steel and bond the arch on!! then you dont need to weld the bit on the rear quarter!
the other areas behind the bumpers and door weld them....once the arch is on then use a bit of filler to hide the line of the arch on the quarter!
job done

[mlocke666]

bond the arch on!!

Can you really get stuff that strong? Cos I'm thinking about how to mount my wide arch kit on my manta project.

[bootie3367]

Carltonman....

RE the arches....

Get a decent bonding agent for steel and bond the arch on!! then you dont need to weld the bit on the rear quarter!
the other areas behind the bumpers and door weld them....once the arch is on then use a bit of filler to hide the line of the arch on the quarter!
job done

Yes Iain, do tell, what is this stuff called and where can you get it?

Jon

[Whippit]

I have used loctite metalset before. the main thing is surface prep, it has to be spotless and thoroughly degreased. Providing its not a structural part (sills) then I think it should be fine.

This is what vauxhall have to say about it.

Body Repair Using Cementing
 "Cementing" means joining of the same or different materials using an anorganic or organic substance at room temperature or with slight heating. Practical use of the cementing technique is limited to body components which do not bear a load (e.g. outer rear quarter panel). Load-bearing components, e.g. frame, members must not be cemented. The costs of repair and maintenance of a vehicle have a great influence on its appeal to the customer and therefore contribute to its competitiveness. Therefore, it is obvious that cost development must be constantly supervised, and that work methods that reduce costs be developed. The cementing techniques developed by Opel/Vauxhall to suit the requirements of body repairs are a logical consequence of the principle of taking modern technologies that have proved themselves to be useful and economical in other commercial fields (e.g. in the aerospace industry) and then making them practicable for the automobile industry. The starting point for the development of the cementing technique was the frequency of comparatively expensive damage to the vehicle tail, which occurs in a large percentage of all traffic accidents. Using the previously employed repair method, welding in new sheet metal parts, an assortment of interior parts sensitive to fire and heat, e.g., inner trim panelling, seats, fuel tank, etc., had to be removed. The cementing method means a reduction in the amount of time required for the repair operations. The cementing technique has a series of advantages compared to the welding process: Bond is free of tension. No change in material jointing. Maintenance of standard corrosion protection. Water - tight and corrosion - free joint. No electrochemical corrosion between different materials. Universal application. The cementing technique can be used after a short period of instruction. The cement bond is nowadays extremely reliable. A precondition for a stable bond which can tolerate the forces present in the bonded area is, besides exact observation of the processing instructions of the cement manufacturer, proper preparation and positioning of the joint surfaces and joining parts. The joint surfaces shape which has been proven itself to be the most efficient in bodyworking and in repairs is the offset overlap with tapered upper plate, which is the preferred method to be used. The adhesion of the cement bond depends on the inner bonding force of the cement and of the bonding force between the cement layer and the surface of the parts being bonded. Therefore, as well as the specific properties of the cement, the condition of the surface of the parts being joined is also an important consideration. Thorough cleaning of the joining parts in the area to be cemented is a precondition for a stable cemented bond. Any grease and wax remains, oxide layers, rust, scales, paint and primer must be completely removed from the surfaces being cemented. For degreasing, only the solvent included in the "Cement" Repair Set - 90 114 718/15 04 800 - may be used. Important Never use alcohol, benzine or paint thinner. In areas where the new component cannot be fixed with clamps until the cement has hardened, steel flat-headed blind rivets - type 4 x 8 mm/0.16 x 0.31 in., must be used. The rivets transfer practically no force but serve only to hold the new component firmly in place while the cement is hardening. The further development of cementing materials has already made it possible to spot weld the cement area while it is still wet, instead of using rivets (not plug welding or seam welding). The two component cement intended for cementing body components, is designed for the special requirements of body repairs and must only be used in the prescribed combination. It must never be replaced by or mixed with other unauthorized materials. When using two component cement based on epoxy resin, observe the processing instructions and safety measures of the manufacturer and relevant institutional regulations. When processing cementing materials, special safety measures must be observed in order to avoid damage to health. The same restrictions apply here as for paint materials. Avoid direct skin contact to cements. Unhardened epoxy resin cement can induce irritations in sensitive skin. If cement comes into contact with skin, wash immediately with warm water and soap. Then rub in skin protection creme. If cement spray gets into the eyes, wash out immediately with plenty of luke -warm water for 10 to 15 minutes. Contact an eye specialist.

There will be an exam next week LOL

[monzaiain]

Chemical metal or araldite!!

Metal araldite will hold it if its applied properly
The rest will be welded anyway so it doesn't need to be the strength of the new panel
Spot weld it too then get the fibreglass out and a bit of cataloy....job done!

[Pedro]

OK, so I'm a bodybuilder on trucks, and we use Sikaflex type mastic from Commercial Body Supplies in the West Midlands - do a Google, they have a webbysite. Black is the strongest, grey is slightly weaker and white is slightly weaker still (but easier to get off your hands!). Thing is, most people think it's a colour co-ordination thing, but shhhhh, let's not tell them and be smug withinn ourselves, eh?

White is plenty strong enough to hold a wheelarch repair panel in place, and black would hold the front bulkhead in place, BUT it's all down to preparation.
You'd ideally need to get rip of all paint, lightly sand the bonding area with 80 grit, clean THOROUGHLY* with panel wipe, apply mastic (don't be silly with it - more doesn't mean stronger!) and clamp in place overnight. Full strength is to be had after 24 hours in 20degrees or summat, but usually OK to work with after a kip overnight.

TBH, I'd prefer to weld and grind, cos it's steel (allegedly!) and that's how I was brought up!



* When I say thoroughly, I mean it. OK, so let's say you don't thoroughly clean the area. Yep, it'll still stick, and you'll fill it, and you'll paint it, and you'll think "Fook Pedro, knows fook all, him! Thoroughly my arse! You'll happily drive it about, thinking you're the dog's nads, but after a couple of washes, you'll be thinking "Hang on a mo, that wheelarch looks outta line............bollocks, it's not stuck very well!"

Now whos' the fookin Daddy, eh?

Yeah, it's me alright!!!!!

[monzaiain]

HaHa!!!!!

Go Pedro!!

pmsl  hee hee

[Murph]

That tole 'em! 

[Dave the Builder]

so you just wipe the dust off the prepped surfaces with an oily rag then and slap a few trowel fulls of cement between the panels then,will blue circle ordinary portland do then.?
how much sand and what type ? i take it concreting sand will be a bit coarse to sand down and paint later.

 Had i better stick to building walls and plastering then ?

[HMK]

I knew a builder who repaired his rotten sills with pink wall plaster  - looked great when it was finished & painted Well, for a while, anyway

That black bonding agent is ok - I fitted a rear wheel arch on one of my Jags with it once. The advantage is, as said above, that you don't distort the metal. The other big advantage is that it is a perfect water tight seal, so you don't get that problem of the rust starting to form again between the two layers of metal

As said, only use it on non-structural parts such as outer wheel arches - although you will need a weld or two at the two bottom edges.