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man of kent
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« on: February 01, 2012, 09:01:33 AM » |
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Tried to undo the wheel bolts on the Diamond. Wrench and a 3 foot extension and me bouncing up and down and still will not move! Now have to go to a tyre fitter and hope the bolts dont break. Any tips for getting them undone when the bolts are way inside the alloy wheel? I hope the air guns with the tyre fitters will shake them free.
How come the garages say that they are torqued up correctly and then deny they are responsible for broken bolts. Does this mean every time you get a puncture you have to get a mobile fitter out! I've hand tightened wheel nuts and bolts for over 40 years and bever had one come loose. Think its more a case of health and safety getting it wrong AGAIN.............
Word of warning from past experience. Got locking wheel bolts? Tighten them up yourself as they break frequently!
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man of kent
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 10:14:14 AM » |
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The problem with alloys is that sometimes the bolt is deeply embedded in the wheel and you cannot get in and the other is the alloy wheel surface is damaged by the heat. Goes in friday to put the original Diamond wheels back on - if they can get the bolts undone without breaking the bolts. I intend to do them up myself after. |
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kevinfourlegs
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 12:39:37 PM » |
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After having tyres fitted, I drive home, loosen the wheel bolts and then torque them up myself. They are overtightened by the tyre fitters.
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PeterC
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Location: Croydon (twinned with Beirut), Surrey.
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 03:54:41 PM » |
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I expect the tyre fitters airgun will shift them - thats unless they break. I bent my own wheel brace years ago just using my foot btw !. In the end I wacked the bugger on the head with a club hammer incase that disturbed the thread then found a long bar.
The cold weather might make a difference I suppose. Perhaps the steel (?) bolt shrinks faster than the alloy wheel in the cold so it would then grip tighter. Try a hairdryer to warm it all up or a socket boiled in water to quickly heat (and lengthen) the bolt only. THATS JUST A THEORY I HAD after I bent my wheel brace so see if anyone else approves/disapproves.
Last few years when a wheel is changed I have always undone them before driving off and then hand tightening them. That way the airgun is still still there if I cannot shift them !.
My Rioja Carlton came with what looks like copper slip on the wheel bolts - came undone easily.
Torque settings use arm pulling upward to tighten and foot downwards to undo. I have not lost a wheel yet but gawd knows how near to stupidity it is.
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1993 2.0 CDi Auto Estate (Rioja Red with a little tin worm but tatty paint).
1992 2.0 CDXi Manual Estate (Spectral Blue with too much tin worm but better paint).
Old age means wondering: Do I really have to struggle to become an expert in something I might never need to do again ?.
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man of kent
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 04:23:18 PM » |
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General opinion if you do an internet search is to bang the end of the bolt, apply WD40 or penetrating oil and leave overnight. I'll try that a few times before friday.
Heat (intense) is not a solution in this case as the bolts are at least 25mm inside the alloy wheel and the alloy would be damaged and you need to freeze the bolts to make them shrink. i'll try to find a spray freezer liquid. Or could this make the bolt brittle?
Any other suggestions? Has anybody actually broken a Senator/carlton wheel bolt?
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kevinfourlegs
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 05:26:51 PM » |
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Sorry, Peter, but when I undo the wheel bolts, I push down and when I torque them up again, I also push down. It all depends which way one holds the wheel brace and torque wrench.
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PeterC
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Location: Croydon (twinned with Beirut), Surrey.
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2012, 05:30:21 PM » |
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I pull up to tighten in the hope that that will be less torque than pushing down with the weight of my fine body. When I want to undo them I hope that pushing down will then suffice !.
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1993 2.0 CDi Auto Estate (Rioja Red with a little tin worm but tatty paint).
1992 2.0 CDXi Manual Estate (Spectral Blue with too much tin worm but better paint).
Old age means wondering: Do I really have to struggle to become an expert in something I might never need to do again ?.
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kevinfourlegs
The only TC member with four legs
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2012, 05:42:31 PM » |
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If you use a torque wrench to tighten the wheel bolts, then it should take the same amount of pressure to reach the desired torque setting, regardless of whether its pushed or pulled.
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« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 05:59:50 PM by kevinfourlegs »
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8valver
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 05:55:53 PM » |
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I have seen a kit being used by one of the recovery drivers we use, to remove locking nuts without the key. it involves a hd manual impact driver, a big hammer, and a set of 'universal' sockets to bite into the bolt.
I think you need some kind of shock solution, something like the above, or a big rattle gun, trying to scaff bar it off is more likey to shear the bolt.
If you need to get some heat into it how about a spirited drive, use the brakes to try and get the hubs nicely warmed up?
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chris
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 06:32:07 PM » |
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I dont blame the tyre fitters, the fact that you can leave the tyre bay, loosen and retighten the bolts without a problem tells you that they didnt do anything wrong.
The fact is that usually stuck bolts havent been removed for a long time and the threads arent causing the problem, its corrosion between the steel and the alloy. It usually alloys that seem to have the problem.
Ive had wheels come loose, one immediately after leaving a tyre shop so clearly if they had taken more care and had a system of checking with a torque wrench it wouldnt have happened, seems like a good thing to me.
For comedy value this story, Ive lost a wheel off the back of a Reliant Robin before, that didnt leave a lot of wheels to roll on and the school bus pulling up as I walked back to the car with the wheel in hand was not good. True.
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kevinfourlegs
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 09:48:33 PM » |
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Perhaps I should clarify about what I said about using a torque wrench at home after having tyres fitted. To remove the wheel bolts, a breaker bar and a person jumping up on it was needed. The standard wheel brace , as supplied will suffice providing the torque setting has not been exceeded. After coming home and using the manufacturer supplied wheel brace to loosen the wheel bolts, was useless. Had I been on my own with a puncture how would I have got the wheels off? Calling out a tyre fitter at a £20 cost plus the cost of repair/replacement. I'm not slagging off all tyre fitters, as I have done tyre fitting myself, but more care could be taken when fitting wheel bolts.
Chris, what you are saying about the corrosion, I would suspect that you may be correct. At Renault I lost count of the times that alloy wheels corroded to the centre of the hubs. Usually brute force worked. We were told NOT to use copper grease or similar on the wheel nuts/bolts. However, a rub down of the hub and the alloy wheel with some emery paper, followed by a smear of copper grease ensured that should the owner need to change the wheel himself or when the car came back in for a future service, then the wheels could be removed without brute force.
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« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 09:50:16 PM by kevinfourlegs »
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chris
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2012, 11:08:08 PM » |
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. To remove the wheel bolts, a breaker bar and a person jumping up on it was needed. The standard wheel brace , as supplied will suffice providing the torque setting has not been exceeded. After coming home and using the manufacturer supplied wheel brace to loosen the wheel bolts, was useless. Had I been on my own with a puncture how would I have got the wheels off? Calling out a tyre fitter at a £20 cost plus the cost of repair/replacement. I'm not slagging off all tyre fitters, as I have done tyre fitting myself, but more care could be taken when fitting wheel bolts.
Fair point. Thats just ridiculous. |
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kevinfourlegs
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 12:01:34 PM » |
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When I had my Diplomat, I had a puncture in the n/s/r tyre. I used the factory supplied wheel brace to loosen the wheel bolts. I put the car's jack under the jacking point and began to raise the jack. I got a crunching sound amd a pile of rust. A call to the tyre fitters and they came out and used a trolley jack so they could change he wheel. Had a £20 call out charge for the privilege plus another tenner for the puncture repair. I now carry a trolley jack to be on the safe side. Also its easier for me with a trolley jack.
That's how I know about a call out charge.
I know its ridiculous, but that'a how it goes.
What about wd 40 or similar? Using the plastic straw in the end of the nozzle, can't you spray copius amounts of said penetrating fluid where the bolt meets wheel and leave it to soak overnight?
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The Duke
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2012, 12:44:36 PM » |
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It sounds like that the bolts have been way overtightened. Tyre fitters always seem to over tighten them. They only need to be torqued up to 90Nm which isn't as tight as most people think. After having new tyres fitted I always slacken the bolts off with a 2' breaker bar & deep 17mm socket and re-tighten them to the factory spec with a torque wrench. I also carry one of those extendable wheel wrenches in the boot as the standard wrenches are cheap and nasty affairs that bend easily.
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kevinfourlegs
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2012, 01:07:56 PM » |
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You're right about 90 Nm not being as much as folk think. I was used to Volvos as there's were 100Nm, so I did wonder about Vauxhall Carltons at 90 Nm. My 7 series BM was 110Nm, but that was a different class of car.
When I was at Renault, we were taught to use the air gun until the nuts/bolts met the wheel and then release the trigger and go to the next one and so on. Once the car was back on the floor, torque the nuts/bolts to whatever torque setting applied to what car it was.
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Einarrson
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2012, 11:16:43 PM » |
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Sometimes the problem is that with a conventional wrench, all the force you are applying is twisting the wrench inwards in the wrong direction. Not sure that makes sense but here's how I get round it:
Get a 12" extension bar and an axle stand. Support the extension bar with the axle stand at the same height as the bolt you are undoing. Now you should be able to put as much pressure as you like whilst keeping all the force going in the right direction.
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diplomat2.6
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 02:29:01 AM » |
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I've had a game with wheel nut - especially the locking ones.
One particular time I had to weld a bolt to the rounded off locking nut. I also not that applying the force at a right angle to the bolt is crucial but a lot of braces are angled.
Given that an average adult is roughly 80kg or applies a force of 800N and the supplied brace is 40cm, standing on it should provide 320Nm of torque when the force is directly applied (at 3 or 9 o'clock - without the multiplicative effect of jumping!)
To achieve 90Nm you could either find a child of about 22.5kg (3 1/2 stone) or cut the brace to around 11cm although that would be fairly difficult to stand on.
That doesn't sound right does it?
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man of kent
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« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2012, 11:08:16 AM » |
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The wheels are off. What made the difference was doing what is suggested on various websites.
The problem can be 2 things. Bolts done up too tight and corrosion between the alloy wheel and steel bolt if the wheels have not been off for a while. The solution is to hit the bolt head with a hammer and extension bar and soak in plus gas or WD40. The shock frees the corrosion and the WD40 seeps in. I did this three times and the bolts came undone ok.
The question then if you want to stop it happening again may be to put copper grease on the wheel and bolt, but will that cause an electrolitic action - copper, steel, aluminium? Again I think it depends on how frequently the wheels come off.
The tyre fitters told me the problem is air guns which cannot be accurately adjusted for the correct torque. They should use a torque wrench which should be regularly calibrated.
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kevinfourlegs
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« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2012, 11:21:11 AM » |
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That's what I was taught, use a torque wrench. I was told that when I first worked in a garage and I still use the advice to this day. Explains why I can remove wheels easily, even after long periods.
Here endeth today's lesson.
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melinx
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« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2012, 11:32:31 AM » |
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The question then if you want to stop it happening again may be to put copper grease on the wheel and bolt, but will that cause an electrolitic action - copper, steel, aluminium? Again I think it depends on how frequently the wheels come off.
For quite a number of years I have been using Comma 'Copper Ease' anti seize assembly compound on the wheel bolts and mating surfaces without anything other than beneficial effects  |
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Murph
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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2012, 01:40:38 PM » |
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I always give the threads and mating surfaces a coat of copper grease to prevent seizing.
Works for me.
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man of kent
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« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2012, 04:40:29 PM » |
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Copper grease it is then. I know the supplier has torqued them up correctly as I can undo them! When it gets warmer..............
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Einarrson
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2012, 04:53:30 PM » |
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I dont bother with the locking nuts anymore since the adapters fell out of the hole in the spare wheel well on the road somewhere. I need to weld that!
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