Wrong Radiator

[kevinfourlegs]

Don't ask me why, but I never noticed before, but I think my car has the wrong radiator. The previous owner bought it secondhand, I have just looked at the receipts.

The car is auto, non aircon.

The radiator has a cooler pipe attached to the right hand side. The pipe has a 90 degree bend to make it connect to the union on the radiator. Should this pipe be attached to a cooler on the bottom of the radiator?

On the left side of the radiator is the switch for the auxilary cooling fan, which isn't fitted and neither is the plastic shroud.

My Diplomat had the auxilary cooling fan, but that had aircon, but the GL doesn't have aircon.

[The Duke]

What engine is it?

[Murph]

2.0

[man of kent]

My 1993 2.0 club manual has had the wrong rad fitted by the previous owners garage. Its got 2 unused connections at the bottom of the rad. For auto?

Wonder why? Would have thought the correct one was available.

[kevinfourlegs]

The previous owner must have foned up, asked for a radiator for a Carlton, then got a reply saying we got one. Probably done regardless of whether the car was aito, manual etc.

[carlton_mad]

its cheaper to make a rad for just the auto purely because it will fit both!!

all down to economics!!

[kevinfourlegs]

The previous owner got the radiator secondhand. I was looking at the radiator and something didn't seem quite right. Then it dawned on me (I had a blonde moment), the mountings on the slam panel have been modified to suit, but its good.

I take it the cooler pipe should be at the bottom of the radiator and not at the right side like it is now? That would explain why the fan shroud is missing.

[melinx]

Removing the fan shroud seriously reduces the efficiency of the fan; it wasn't added as a whim Opel were too cost conscious (tight) for that as Jonnybear found

http://totalcarlton.com/forums/index.php/topic,7632.msg84612.html#msg84612

[kevinfourlegs]

The radiator shroud has never been on my current car since I've had it. One of the previous owners had left it off.

Last night the top of the radiator was very hot, while the bottom was cool.

[melinx]

When the engine is fully warmed up, can you see water flowing into the plastic header tank if you rev it ? (I'm assuming that your model has the separate header tank ?)

This would tell you that the water pump is actually circulating coolant; It's unlikely to be a pump problem because, if it's like my previous 'L' reg 2 litre, the impeller is metal. (unless the impeller blades have corroded away )

[kevinfourlegs]

Yes, it has the header tank. Whether or not there is coolant flowing into it, I don't know. I will have to get the engine up to temperature and check it.

[man of kent]

Carlton mad tells me that some of the replacement water pumps had plastic impellors which come loose and dont turn. Can you confirm Chris? Any idea which pumps are no good? QH perhaps. Quite a few on fleabay.

As long as the car is moving then the coolant flows and you do not overheat. In traffic.............

[kevinfourlegs]

The car has never overheated in traffic. I would like to obtain and refit the shroud, but with the oil cooler pipe bent at 90 degrees, the shroud won't fit.

[PeterC]

Removing the fan shroud seriously reduces the efficiency of the fan; it wasn't added as a whim Opel were too cost conscious (tight) for that as Jonnybear found

http://totalcarlton.com/forums/index.php/topic,7632.msg84612.html#msg84612

I agree  - life is pretty pointless without that shroud. It ensures the air from the fan HAS to pass through the radiator. By all means check the water flow in the header tank cos that is easy but even if that is a problem the shroud still needs to be there - even if part of it is cut off you will still be a hell of a lot better off imho.

[kevinfourlegs]

I did have the shroud off my Diplomat, but some dickhead ran over it.

[man of kent]

Having designed a few cooling systems, the shroud is most important for effective cooling. The optimum position of the fan inside the shroud is 2/3 of the fan width inside the shroud and 1/3 outside rearwards. The fan tip should be as close to the shroud as possible. The gap between the tip and the shroud is dependent upon the maximum engine movement. You know you need new mountings when the fan hits the shroud !. You also have to allow for soggy engine mountings after some years as the engine sinks or in some cases the fan moves up as a gearbox mounting goes soggy. You will find on some vehicles and I think the carlton is one of them, the shroud can be repositioned up or down a little. When reassembling the shround, check the tip clearance is the same all the way round. On some cars they just put a big fan in somewhere! Where occasionally a fan is fitted in front of the radiator, just a fan ring is fitted with no shroud so the air does not fly off the tip at 90 degrees.

What is also of importance is that the air can get out past the engine which is not that difficult unless there is a lower engine shield which can sometimes cause an air plug around the engine. Some cars have holes in the inner wheelhouse to let the air out and into a low pressure area under the wing which can suck more air through.

Its also important that the frontal open cross section at the grille etc is at least as big as the radiator cross sectional area. Sometimes things like the positioning of horns, grille thickness and oil colers etc can sometimes reduce cooling which is why they test vehilces.

If anybody is playing around with modifying their cooling, I hope this helps. Dont leave the shroud off! Its important.

[Pedro]

The radiator shroud has never been on my current car since I've had it. One of the previous owners had left it off.

Last night the top of the radiator was very hot, while the bottom was cool.

That's the radiator doing it's job then!

I'd remove it and flush it both ways. then do the rest of the water pipes - OK, you won't get cold water past the thermostat UNLESS it's stuck open, which sounds like it is.
Which I think I suggested in your other thread.

[Catho]

Having designed a few cooling systems, the shroud is most important for effective cooling. The optimum position of the fan inside the shroud is 2/3 of the fan width inside the shroud and 1/3 outside rearwards. The fan tip should be as close to the shroud as possible. The gap between the tip and the shroud is dependent upon the maximum engine movement. You know you need new mountings when the fan hits the shroud !. You also have to allow for soggy engine mountings after some years as the engine sinks or in some cases the fan moves up as a gearbox mounting goes soggy. You will find on some vehicles and I think the carlton is one of them, the shroud can be repositioned up or down a little. When reassembling the shround, check the tip clearance is the same all the way round. On some cars they just put a big fan in somewhere! Where occasionally a fan is fitted in front of the radiator, just a fan ring is fitted with no shroud so the air does not fly off the tip at 90 degrees.

What is also of importance is that the air can get out past the engine which is not that difficult unless there is a lower engine shield which can sometimes cause an air plug around the engine. Some cars have holes in the inner wheelhouse to let the air out and into a low pressure area under the wing which can suck more air through.

Its also important that the frontal open cross section at the grille etc is at least as big as the radiator cross sectional area. Sometimes things like the positioning of horns, grille thickness and oil colers etc can sometimes reduce cooling which is why they test vehilces.

If anybody is playing around with modifying their cooling, I hope this helps. Dont leave the shroud off! Its important.

That was a great post MOK, very informative, that's precision engineering.

Goes to show how important the design/engineering process is, in this case right down to the very last mm of the fan shroud!!

Having just done (but yet still in the process of doing) my cooling system, I'll certainly pay more attention to the way it's put back together.

[kevinfourlegs]

Keith is a very knowledgeable man. His posts make good reading.

I will be sourcing another fan shroud.

The dickhead that ran over the one off my Diplomat was me.

[PeterC]

Thanks for the info MOK. You made me start wondering about fitting an electric fan instead. Theres now another advantage because then the engine mounts and other movement would not send the fan into the shroud.

[melinx]

Having designed a few cooling systems, the shroud is most important for effective cooling. The optimum position of the fan inside the shroud is 2/3 of the fan width inside the shroud and 1/3 outside rearwards. The fan tip should be as close to the shroud as possible. The gap between the tip and the shroud is dependent upon the maximum engine movement. You know you need new mountings when the fan hits the shroud !. You also have to allow for soggy engine mountings after some years as the engine sinks or in some cases the fan moves up as a gearbox mounting goes soggy. You will find on some vehicles and I think the carlton is one of them, the shroud can be repositioned up or down a little. When reassembling the shround, check the tip clearance is the same all the way round. On some cars they just put a big fan in somewhere! Where occasionally a fan is fitted in front of the radiator, just a fan ring is fitted with no shroud so the air does not fly off the tip at 90 degrees.

What is also of importance is that the air can get out past the engine which is not that difficult unless there is a lower engine shield which can sometimes cause an air plug around the engine. Some cars have holes in the inner wheelhouse to let the air out and into a low pressure area under the wing which can suck more air through.

Its also important that the frontal open cross section at the grille etc is at least as big as the radiator cross sectional area. Sometimes things like the positioning of horns, grille thickness and oil colers etc can sometimes reduce cooling which is why they test vehilces.

If anybody is playing around with modifying their cooling, I hope this helps. Dont leave the shroud off! Its important.

As the proverb says : -

“ He who knows and knows he knows: he is wise - follow him.”

[man of kent]

Errrrrr.....I'm now blushing! Just happens that I know about this bit of the car. At least I remember something after designing car, truck & bus bits for 45 years! Shame nobody wants experienced engineers even though the government says there is a shortage. What they mean is that there are not enough graduated with no experience willing to work for £20k a year!

ps dont ever ask a "car designer" which car he designed. The one man band car designers came to an end 30 years ago. There are now hundreds designing a car. I asked an old car designer who worked in the 1930's how many designers there were on a car. Three! Whole car design workforce 3 ! I think its now 4 with 250 working on emissions!

[melinx]

Shame nobody wants experienced engineers even though the government says there is a shortage. What they mean is that there are not enough graduated with no experience willing to work for £20k a year!

Aint that the truth; as a qualified Electronics Engineer with a 10 page CV and experience in numerous aspects of industry (The longest title I ever had was 'Non Destructive Testing Development and Control Instrumentation Engineer'  ) that, or it's equivalent allowing for inflation, was about the best pay level I had.

On business trips to Scandinavia and Germany, I was addressed as 'Herr Ingenure *****' in Britain, the likes of me were regarded as beetle browed gorrillas with a hammer who had only just learned not to drool  

[man of kent]

Best comment I heard from an engineering director in the UK...... "Engineers? Dirt, we can pick you up from the street". I was pleased when the company went bust although the director was laughing all the way to the bank.

I can see no logical reason for anybody going to university to get a degree in engineering. There is no future in engineering in the UK as its so much easier for the government to borrow money leaving it to the next lot of idiots who get elected next time, and thats all parties!

Or, if you do get an engineering degree, go abroad young man.

Nothing to do with wrong radiator really..................

[kevinfourlegs]

No, but you enlightened us.