Engine rough and dies

[PeterC]

Problem with engine.

Once warmed up, left ticking over, runs rough then splutters to a halt.

I had used the spare battery on the Rioja Carlton. Started fine so I left it to run for a while to charge up the battery which has ben unused for at least 18 months. Tickover was 500 rpm. Got chatting to neighbour.

Must have left it for 10 minutes very approx. Started going slightly rough slight miss / rpm-waver. I used the pedal to lift it up to about 1,500 rpm no problem (did not try any higher). Anyway then it started getting rougher and using the pedal was tricky until it reached 800 rpm then responsive. It was smelling rather rich and on reflection I feel like it was behaving like a car with too much choke.  Neighbour also says he clipped throttle cable back on as it was going back when I took my foot off the pedal (make sense ?). Neighbour went to get something from his house and it started sounding like it was fireing on 3 out of 4. Anyway coughed to a halt. Would not re-start (a few pops from exhaust). He wanted to press on, pumping the pedal,  but the ecu is in control right ?. So I decided to leave engine until it was cold again and it was daylight. TBH I wonder if there is a little knowledge is a dangerous thing going on. I felt it was flooded by now !!!.

Did I leave it ticking over for too long and all it needed was driving ?. I cannot drive anywhere as its MOT is now overdue. Damn wished I had tried pulling off the filler cap !. Remember I had been workimg on the diff from that wheel arch so have I upset anything (dont think so).

[melinx]

Low battery voltage, tickover is possibly draining more current than alternator supplying and the electronics have a 'nervous breakdown' if the voltage goes much below 12.

[PeterC]

Thank Melinx. I wondered if 500 rpm was doing more discharging than charging. Hope that is it in which case two flat batteries !. I know the engine spun quite freely when I tried to re-start but it must have been very warm by then, wish I had noted the temp guage. Mistake doing it in the dark with the lights off !.

[melinx]

Spinning over is no indication of a good battery

http://totalcarlton.com/forums/index.php/topic,9728.msg77888.html#msg77888

If I remember correctly, Von Opel reckons the Carlton ECU should work down to 11.5 volts "but don't count on it"

[melinx]

Sorry, I've misquoted him  it's 10 volts.

http://totalcarlton.com/forums/index.php/topic,11295.msg91374.html#msg91374

[PeterC]

Thanks Melinx. I suspect 11.5 Volts (edit or 10 volts) might be fine on a brand new clean and dry set of wireing and joints etc etc. But I reckon after 17 years and on a damp eve there is more chance of a voltage drop somewhere.

So possible that the battery had enough left in it after 18 months lack of use for one (good) start. Neighbour had a little box that connects across battery. Before I put spare battery on it showed battery was partially charged after faffing it showed low (out of high, partial and low). That was before starting but it started fine. Neighbour pointed out that green LED says battery condition is good. But text next to it suggests you should only read that if you are cranking the engine - that is my belief but he did not agree with that. Other two LEDs indicated the alternater was good.

Those gadgets are all just LEDs triggered by different voltages I suppose. On motorbikes I used to do the same with an old meter watching the voltage - but the needle on that meter sticks nowadays so i am always having to tap it with my third hand !.

[melinx]

the needle on that meter sticks nowadays so i am always having to tap it with my third hand !.

I'm not surprised that it's 'sticky' 

[PeterC]

You mean due to lack of use ?. Ha ha yes I see. Oh well it is lack of use then !.

[carlton_mad]

sounds like cts could be goosed when murph gets back we will see about popping round and having a look!!

[PeterC]

Thanks Chris. Wow I had to find out what a cts is !. Coolant Temperature Sensor (or am I wrong ?). Would never have dreamt such a connection till I read up, its all getting complicated  . When ish Murph back / you coming. Its far enough for you that I want to be ready and with tea etc  .

[kevinfourlegs]

Would that be tea as in a hot beverage, or tea as in a plate of food? I just want to be sure.

[PeterC]

Both and/or either . Well it depends on time and stomach but not necessarily in that order  .

On a sensible note I checked oil and water levels early this morning. Water going somewhere slowly and I notice the oil pressure light might take longer to go out than on my Blue Carlton. But otherwise OK.

On a positive note the car has been dry inside generally but specifically the front passenger footwell is now bone dry (despite the weather and me hosing it down). Carpet underlay/sound-proofer has now dried out (been propped up by pieces of wood for last 10 days)   .

Thought. I have noticed that in stationary traffic the Rioja Carltons temp gauge goes up unlike the blue one which only ever went to about 5 or 10%. Think it goes up to 50% (bit alarmed) but moving or fan heater drops it fairly quickly. I dont think the gauge actually wanders above 50% but it scares me as I got used to the dozey one in the Blue Carlton. Forgot that last night so no idea what the temp gauge was reading (in the dark).

Anything else obvious I could check ?.

I must admit I would be tempted to give it a drive around incase nothing is wrong (got RAC membership anyway with a no claims discount) but must MOT first.

[kevinfourlegs]

That was a sensible question  . I have been known to travel from Pontypridd to Southend for a Sunday roast. 

[PeterC]

Wot. You been Nawth of the Thames then. Is it safe ?. Are they OK there, what happens if you run out of petrol there - do they have any ?. Its like er another country there you know. (now who have I not offended yet ?). I was born in Brum so........

[kevinfourlegs]

Not only have I been north of the Thames, I've also been north of the border on many occasions.

[PeterC]

I identified the occaisional squeek btw, assumed it was a belt but so intermittent I did not chase it down. I forgot that before the engine went erratic on 23rd I got the squeek when turning the lights on. Neighbour sprayed WD40 all over the front of the engine. Reading another thread reminded me this happened and I see from that thread it says WD40 is pointless on belts as it dries out. Wonder where else the WD40 went though ?. Perhaps the belt was so wet that the alternator stopped going round !.

I must pluck up the courage to see if it will start - cannot do any more damage ?. But first I want to do a full visual (using my ignorant eyes) in daylight. I checked oil which was a used colour but assume its not that old as it looked newish when I got the car in July (that long already). Must review antifreeze in cooling water BEFORE the winter (I have had enough headgasket failures in my life).

Had planned to do oil+filter, cooling-water & wipers before MOT.

[PeterC]

Right. Update on the Rioja one.

Last night I decided I was getting too scared (as usual). I realised I was even scared of starting it so I thought sod it and try it. As expected she started OK, probably as quick as usual (not bad for 45 days even though a re-charged battery). As it warmed up I had time to faff around (getting the latest leaves out of the scuttles, smell the exhaust). Only then did it start to splutter a bit. When I used the accelerator gently it coughed slightly and then was happy and responsive for a while. I turned it off before it became too obviouse. Not really unexpected if it is the cts ?.

I also noted the temp guage had not started to rise but I did get hot air quick enough when I tried the heater. Top hose to radiator was cold. The metal body on the RHS viewed from the front was hot. Is that the thermostatic valve and does that meain its a bit late (works better than the Blue carlton was !). Whatever it is it has one blue wire going to it and all the stuff at the connecter is rather blue as well. So I pulled it off and on and wiggled it about. Turned ignition back on but only petrol guage moved - maybe not warm enough.

I was looking for the cts - where is it?. I thought it was behind the alternator - eventually spotted what might be it between the alternator and the engine body. A pair of wires in a connector coming off at right angles to what might be the sensor. Located almost exactly opposite the other sensor ( which I assume is for the temp guage) so probably on the same water way through the block and near where the water pump would be ?. If that is the cts then disturbing and/or cleaning the electrical contacts is not going to be easy.

QUESTIONS
1) Where is the cts.
2) I am clinging to my hope/theory that driving it will hide / overcome the problem as it probably has lurked for months/years. If that is the case do I still need to sort it before the overdue MOT test (emissions ?). So I cannot go driving it around to try it out until I go to the MOT. I have RAC membership as insurance which I ONLY ever rely on if the unlikely happens.

[The Duke]

It could also be worth checking the crankshaft revolution sensor.

[chrismec]

CTS is behind alternator as you described, a 19mm spanner fits it

[melinx]

Unplug the 2 pin connector on the CTS and check with a multimeter on Ohms across the 2 pins on the CTS.

With the engine cold (about 10 degrees C) it should read around 4000 Ohms: Engine hot (80/90 C) it should read around 250 Ohms or less.

Then with the multimeter on Volts check that you have 5 Volts DC on the harness plug.

If those readings check out, there's nothing wrong with the temperature sensor or the feed to it.

Remember that the temperature gauge reading has nothing to do with the CTS; it's a separate sensor, It's fed by the one with a single wire to it.

CTS voltage and resistance values (typical):

Temp (ºC) Resistance Ohms Volts
0             4800 to 6600      4.00 to 4.50
10           4000                  3.75 to 4.00
20           2200 to 2800       3.00 to 3.50
30           1300                  3.25
40           1000 to 1200       2.50 to 3.00
50           1000                  2.50
60           800                    2.00 to 2.50
80           270 to 380          1.00 to 1.30
110 -                                0.50
Open-circuit = 5v ±0.1v
Short circuit to earth = Zero (0v)

From your description it sounds as if there is a good chance the the thermostat is stuck or there's an airlock

[PeterC]

UPDATE - inconclusive

Warm weather on my back so I checked the cooland temperature sender "cts" - OR - did I discover my meter is faulty ?.

Rioja Carlton
Ignition on, supply to cts 5V OK.
Cold cts resistance 3
Started Engine
Ran for ABOUT 7 minutes then temp gauge at 25% so assume 80 Centigrade (50% says "90")
Ran for total 14 minutes before clearly coughing, temp still 80C.
Turned off engine.
Hot cts resistance 0.5

Blue Carlton (no batery so just did for comparison)
Cold cts resistance 5 - so different but that car is in the shade !.

Either my ancient analogue multimeter is knackered or I dont know how to read resistance. I did the first reading ("3") on 1000x so I switched to 100x to see how near to "30" it would be. BUT I noticed that if I moved the multiplier to 100x the needle position stayed at the same position of "3". Same for 10x and 1x. Am I being stupid ?. Anyway I decided to check the cold blue Carlton which was "5" (regardless of multiplier) so I thought I would carry on with the test Roja warm being "0.5".

ALSO I turned off the engine before it spluttered to a halt but I noticed it would not start again.

I used my new LED battery tester from LIDL.

The batery was at Half Charged (12.0V) before I started but it was not used for a month. Car started fine from cold.

Once started the car was charging at OK (13.2V) and the LED for charging at maximum (14.5V) was flickering. The overload (15.5V) LED did not light up.

After turning off engine the tester was still saying charging (13.2V) !. So I let the battery relax for maybe 20 minutes - tester then said fully charged (12.6).

I expect that maybe the battery is a bit weak. I cannot be sure now but I think my old multimeter said 10V but may have been out of adjustment by 2V.

My tools my tools  .

[Dave the Builder]

why not swap CTS with ya blue cars one and try that ?
your multi meter runs off a battery when testing for resistance usualy 9v
is it down on voltage ?
there's normally a trim / zero adjust on analogue multi meters too .plus most analogue meters have multiple scales to read off.
also ,what grade of oil you using ?

[PeterC]

Well I was going to celebrate its MOT by treating it to new oil etc etc but looks like I have to do it before !.

Oil - not changed it since I got it (was new looking last August). Does not seem to be using oil but might indicate a richness.

Water seemed to be OK but I suppose I will only lose a bit when I swap. Seeing as Blue one was geting naughty I was hoping to be sure before swapping bits.

I recall the meter uses a 9V battery so maybe its time I changed it !.

I am still wondering if it would just drive OK and is only a problem because I leave it there ticking over. Cannot try that as its MOT is now overdue unless I just risk it and rely on RAC to get me to the MOT. Still want to get to the bottom of it though.

I also just thought its never had a tankful left in it with me until November 2011 when I had finally determined that the tank would not leak. It did not get much use before me so might not have had a whole tank of fresh petrol for ages. So perhaps that is why it was OK before.