a welding alternative Q

[Jimmy]

example: i have the typical hole in my bulkhead.

if i sanded down/cut out the rusty part...

made my piece of metal plate to shape.

applied the appropriate oil and anti-rust addatives,

could i not use something like p38 body filler to place the metal plate over the hole hold it in place?? obviously rub down, may by a bit more if needed, rub down smooth... then all the under sealant etc etc ??

obviously this aint gona last as a weld would, but is it a reasonable alternative for the time being?
ie: get some leads for the ark welder and learn to weld...

newbie/amature question or not, bothered! 

but your views would be appreciated 

[Land-Barge]

Is it easy to get to?  Seems like alot of hassle if you can get it welded

That said I did have a couple of holes in my chassis rail which I stuck metal plates over with no more nails and slapped underseal over them, passed two/three mot's like that

[melinx]

Why not use steel pop rivets; aluminium pop rivets are not a good idea in contact with steel if any water or damp is present, they would corrode into a white powder fairly quickly.

Put on plenty of underseal before riveting the plate down, it will then form a good seal and outlast the car; I've done it many times over the years on previous cars in non load bearing areas

If pop rivets are good enough to hold aircraft together, they're good enough for me !

[Jimmy]

Why not use steel pop rivets; aluminium pop rivets are not a good idea in contact with steel if any water or damp is present, they would corrode into a white powder fairly quickly.

Put on plenty of underseal before riveting the plate down, it will then form a good seal and outlast the car; I've done it many times over the years on previous cars in non load bearing areas

If pop rivets are good enough to hold aircraft together, they're good enough for me !

i will defo look into that melinx

[melinx]

You can also use countersunk head steel rivets on body and wheel arches etc. :  Bodyfiller under the predrilled parts and pull the panel down quickly onto the 'wet' filler.

Once it's set blend down the rivet heads with an abrasive disc skim over with filler and proceed as normal, the fact that it is riveted is quite undetectable

[bmwtourer]

2 holes in sill sanded whole sill down filled with decent body filler mixed with chemical metal smothed it over then used our old friend hamerite....passed mot fine infact tester said how solid underneath it was .. will eventually have 2 new sills fitted when the money is saved

[carlton_mad]

why would you admit to a bodge like that on a forum that is able to be viewed by anyone including your local vosa representative!!

and to cap it off you have photos of your car with your plate in full exposure

[Pedro]

2 holes in sill sanded whole sill down filled with decent body filler mixed with chemical metal smothed it over then used our old friend hamerite....passed mot fine infact tester said how solid underneath it was .. will eventually have 2 new sills fitted when the money is saved

Very clever - give the man a big badge with 'FIRST CLASS MUPPET' on it.
I sincerely hope you are not involved in a crash, especially if there's kids in the car.

As Mr. Mad said, all your info is on here - a public forum - you muppet.
I'm not gonna delete this - you can, Mr Tourer, and the sooner the better!!!

[Jimmy]

so would my idea about the bulkhead repair be a muppet idea too?

[Pedro]

so would my idea about the bulkhead repair be a muppet idea too?

Not really sure, dude - the bulkhead is only bonded in, not welded.
Best seek advice from Mr. Mad.

[carlton_mad]

bulk head is a grey area depends on where it is in relation to stressed areas

[Jimmy]

so would my idea about the bulkhead repair be a muppet idea too?

Not really sure, dude - the bulkhead is only bonded in, not welded.
Best seek advice from Mr. Mad.

ok, cheers man, Mr Mads wisdom to the rescue again. Just wanted something simple and quick to stop the water dripping in constanly when it rains, just until i get a lil more welding experience.

Your a wizz with a welder Pedro, i got an ark welder, just need to get some new leads, are they any good with what i have in mind? i know its all about the strength with the rod, that'l be something im gona learn too.. Your advice would mean alot dude

EDIT: just saw the reply mr mad after i wrote my reply. its a hole just inside of where the loom comes through on the passenger side, where the police brought all the excess wire through for there speed killing freak appliancies.. 

[Pedro]

i know its all about the strength with the rod,

I have no idea what you mean with that little gem!!!

Arc welders can difficult to use inside a confined space, and low-powered ones (which is what you'd need if you did try and arc weld it) are bloody horrible things to use on thin sheet, especially when it comes to welding on cars.
They create a helluva lot of heat - and therefore distortion - as it's difficult to stop once you eventually get going!
They're for the more experienced welder to be honest.

You'd be better off using a small MIG welder - so you can 'pulse' (sort of spot-welding) which keeps the heat - and therefore distortion - down.

Somewhere on here I have done a write up about welding - try the search facility!

[stemo]

A semi decent hobby size welder and plenty of different thickness scrap is the best way to learn I found. Getting used the the power settings and wire speeds, has worked well for me so far. Im not the greatest welder in the world but im happy with it! 

[Pedro]

A semi decent hobby size welder and plenty of different thickness scrap is the best way to learn I found. Getting used the the power settings and wire speeds, has worked well for me so far. Im not the greatest welder in the world but im happy with it! 

Can't fault yer matey!

[Jimmy]

fanx for all the input! may call upon all you experts and learning amateurs for some advice in time 

[chris]

In all my years messing about with old and classic cars Ive read countless reports of horrified owners on forums like this who have found repairs done with filler, sealant and pop rivets...and now I hear it being promoted on a car forum.

I can hardly believe it.

I always thought it was something rip off merchants and non enthusiasts did to get a car an MOT (the tester cant tell but that doesnt make it safe or legal) but this is the first time Ive heard it discussed among enthusiasts.

Remind me never to buy a car of you lads.

Im no MOT expert but I know that you cant have significant corrosion within a certain distance of structural stuff and seatbelt mountings, realistically the majority of the car is within these distances and holes should be replaced with welded in steel.

The rear seatbelt mounts (that the kids use) are surprisingly close to the bottom of the rear wheelarches, Id like mine to be welded in thanks

[Pedro]

In all my years messing about with old and classic cars Ive read countless reports of horrified owners on forums like this who have found repairs done with filler, sealant and pop rivets...and now I hear it being promoted on a car forum.

I can hardly believe it.

I always thought it was something rip off merchants and non enthusiasts did to get a car an MOT (the tester cant tell but that doesnt make it safe or legal) but this is the first time Ive heard it discussed among enthusiasts.

Remind me never to buy a car of you lads.

Im no MOT expert but I know that you cant have significant corrosion within a certain distance of structural stuff and seatbelt mountings, realistically the majority of the car is within these distances and holes should be replaced with welded in steel.

The rear seatbelt mounts (that the kids use) are surprisingly close to the bottom of the rear wheelarches, Id like mine to be welded in thanks

Well said, Mr. Chris!

[melinx]

Pop riveting with STEEL pop rivets and bonding with epoxy resin if  properly done with the rivets ‘stitching’ the repair part down in a ‘zigzag’ pattern onto good metal will produce a repair that is stronger and more durable than welding.

The BMW 5 series has the entire front of the car bonded and riveted on!!
Jaguar and Audi use specially coated self piercing steel rivets quite extensively.
I assume that people who are horrified by the use of rivets would never get into any of these makes out of fear for the lives of themselves or their family?

Ships weighing tens of thousands of tons were riveted together for about 100 years and withstood tens of millions of stress reversals due to the ‘hogging and sagging’ caused by wave action: This is a far worse situation than a car is subjected to.

Some of the welding that I have seen is merely a worm of metal laid down with little if any penetration and it is then 90% ground off for cosmetic reasons, this produces at best a very thin line of joining around the edge of the repair: This is deemed to be a perfectly acceptable repair?
Riveting and bonding produces a far more extensive connection between the original metal and the repair part.

Welding will burn off the protective coating on the other side of the metal and if you can not get to that side of the metal to renew the protection (as on a wheel arch) it will rapidly corrode and you end up chasing corrosion across the car.
I know this because I tend to keep my cars for about 20 years and I’ve seen it happen.

The only reason that I say use riveting on non load bearing parts is because the size of the rivets required on the thicker metal in these areas would require expensive hydraulic power tools to set them, plus the fact that the MOT regulations will not accept riveted repairs; probably because they knew that a lot of home repair ‘bodgers’ would use Aluminium rivets and the tester would be unable to detect this.

[Jimmy]

well rivets are defo a handful to get off thats for sure, unless you got a top notch drill to drill them out. look at the small rivets holding the elec window motors, they are a bastard sometimes... so they gotta be good, even the aly ones, tho i think if i ever had to use them for something structural i would use steel, saying that - i rather it welded,

but my original question was not really a bodge one, i was looking for a simple answer on whether my idea would be ok untill i got it welded, i have no intention to filler it up and forget about it, merely stop the darn water dripping in through the bulkhead and constantly soaking my carpets when it rains. and as Pedro said, the bulkhead panel is only bonded in, not welded.

So with that in mind, would the best idea to repair a bonded in panel, would be to bond it? (hole in bulkhead)

im not saying ''dah! this has to be the obvious answer'' im merely asking yous lot for my own experience, see what your thoughts are and learn from it, im eager to learn, we have to when owning these cars..

Fanx all 

[melinx]

So with that in mind, would the best idea to repair a bonded in panel, would be to bond it? (hole in bulkhead)

From new, many unused holes in the bulkhead are blanked off with a blind rubber grommet, so I believe that my original suggestion using underseal and steel rivets (or even self tappers) to hold the repair plate in place while the underseal sets would be perfectly adequate (it would depend on the size of the repair plate!)

By all means bond it in if you feel happier with that, but some means of holding it in place while the bond cures is still advisable.

[Jimmy]

thats great melinx thanks, the hole is not even that big, smaller than the hole for the loom, the plate would only be the size and shape of a cup place mat..

[chris]

Jimmy, asking the question is no problem at all, its the way the thread went after that that I have issues with.

Melinx, those cars were designed to be riveted together, its ridiculous to suggest that because the very clever designers of those cars can engineer this kind of fixing then we can use rivets for anything we like.
If you damaged the front of that BMW and someone tried to weld on a new one because other cars are welded would that be OK, no, it wouldnt be how the car was designed to be assembled....and as for comparing to ships....when you repair the car with 25mm plate Ill accept that one.

If we are going to be this ridiculous then many cars in the past have the chassis built from wood so Im going to make mahogany sills for my car and dovetail them to the arches, a coat of creosote once a year will have them last forever eh.
Ridiculous of course as the Carlton wasnt designed to have timber sills, neither was it designed to have riveted wheelarches or no nails glued chassis legs, both mentioned in this thread.
I think Im very much justified in my horror at promoting bodges like this, theres no defending it.

Its also silly to suggest that crap welding is deemed to be perfectly acceptable. Crap welding is crap welding, that doesnt mean its OK, the repair of welded steel panels should be done with good welding.
Its the law, at least the MOT suggests so.
If you are concerned about it rusting later (valid concern) then try cavity wax.

[Dave the Builder]

Many new gules and bonding techniques are stronger than a few spot welds at manufacture or poor welding afterwards.
you would need to decide if the bulkhead is structural ,and is the size of the hole
going to effect it's structural integrity.
A machined hole is acceptable within reason as far as mot goes.
the best place to put a hole to reduce weakening a structure is the middle.
yes I'm a builder,but i did do an enginnering diploma (material technology,structural integrity,technical german Dankeschön  bitte 

[Jimmy]

Many new gules and bonding techniques are stronger than a few spot welds at manufacture or poor welding afterwards.
you would need to decide if the bulkhead is structural ,and is the size of the hole
going to effect it's structural integrity.
A machined hole is acceptable within reason as far as mot goes.
the best place to put a hole to reduce weakening a structure is the middle.
yes I'm a builder,but i did do an enginnering diploma (material technology,structural integrity,technical german Dankeschön  bitte 

if anyone was to look behind their glove box, you would see the loom coming through the bulkhead in the top left yes? to the right of it, is a drilled hole that the police did to channel more wire for their gadget appliances in the car, this has since started to rust, i just want to cover it up, obviously removed all rust, either by chopping it out or a severe sand down either side. the structural balance must be fine, as i dont think the police are that stupid, or their techs and mechanics who did it. but surely anything i do it, either my questionable idea, or a weld is gona help the structural balance more than just leaving it.....