sensors and dizzy

[tbirdbooboo]

right so i still own the slowest carlton gsi 24v in the world and one of my new year resolutions is to fix this ! lol

friend of mine said change the cam or crank sensor - now i changed one of these ages ago but not sure which one - the one i replaced came off the side of the dizzy  - thats the cranks sensor yeah?
so where can i get a cam sensor ? ? ?  and also - - -
found a random thread on google from years and years ago where the dizzy just needed centralising back up - have looked at mine but i cant see any specific marks - what am i supposed to look for or do ? shall i just loosen the screw and turn it till its in the middle??

[bstardchild]

right so i still own the slowest carlton gsi 24v in the world and one of my new year resolutions is to fix this ! lol

friend of mine said change the cam or crank sensor - now i changed one of these ages ago but not sure which one - the one i replaced came off the side of the dizzy  - thats the cranks sensor yeah?
so where can i get a cam sensor ? ? ?  and also - - -
found a random thread on google from years and years ago where the dizzy just needed centralising back up - have looked at mine but i cant see any specific marks - what am i supposed to look for or do ? shall i just loosen the screw and turn it till its in the middle??

Back to basics first

Have you got an engine management light on all the time or even intermittantly?

Have you fault coded the car - only need a paperclip and a bit of know how (all covered on this forum)

If you have no engine fault codes and no engine management light on (even intermitantly) then no point replacing stuff you don't need too

Why is it slow - compared to what - another of the same?

[tbirdbooboo]

hi no not got any lights on at all - dont the paper clip test a few times since owning the car. i have a thread in 'oily bits ' names guttless carlton. 
Put my car next to a bog standerd 1.2 corsa sxi and it eats me for dinner. no go until 4k , got restrictions at 5500k . i have had her going 120 but it took a long time to get there and was a more gradual thing. 
when you are at half throttle and you put your foot down to the floor no matter what gear you are in it feels like its sort of bogging out / over fueling .
when i had the back of the car all welded up for the mot the guys at the garage did a test and it said cam sensor if i remember even though there were no lights on. Believe me i have changed nearly everything thinking it would fix it but its not . lol

[bstardchild]

hi no not got any lights on at all - dont the paper clip test a few times since owning the car. i have a thread in 'oily bits ' names guttless carlton. 
Put my car next to a bog standerd 1.2 corsa sxi and it eats me for dinner. no go until 4k , got restrictions at 5500k . i have had her going 120 but it took a long time to get there and was a more gradual thing. 
when you are at half throttle and you put your foot down to the floor no matter what gear you are in it feels like its sort of bogging out / over fueling .
when i had the back of the car all welded up for the mot the guys at the garage did a test and it said cam sensor if i remember even though there were no lights on. Believe me i have changed nearly everything thinking it would fix it but its not . lol

Is it modified in anyway? I mean Chipped, Power boost valve (FPReg squeezed in a vice) aftermarket exhaust, cone filter or anything other than std

[tbirdbooboo]

nope totally standerd original everything. 24v engine  has only dont 90k and purrs like a kitten no missfiring no nothing.
so far have done :
new ecu
new spark plugs and leads
new dizzy cap and rotor arm
checked fuel pump, filter and lines
new air flow sensor
check vacuum system - it works
new crank sensor
had it on loads of computer diagnosis things - nothing

[bstardchild]

nope totally standerd original everything. 24v engine  has only dont 90k and purrs like a kitten no missfiring no nothing.
so far have done :
new ecu
new spark plugs and leads
new dizzy cap and rotor arm
checked fuel pump, filter and lines
new air flow sensor
check vacuum system - it works
new crank sensor
had it on loads of computer diagnosis things - nothing

OK on that basis I'll see what I can do to help you diagnose what might be wrong - if you are up for it?

I have some ideas - just run out of time today

[tbirdbooboo]

sounds good im up for that . cheers mate ;-)

[bstardchild]

sounds good im up for that . cheers mate ;-)

Right my evenings plan got changed - gut feel to me says it's a combination of faults and I have a few ideas on what they are but lets tackle them one at a time

Have your tried the woooooo waaaaaaa test? If you haven't heard of it I'll try to find the post I wrote many moons ago

[bstardchild]

Can't find it on a seach so here it is again.

OK a long long time ago & before the tech ones started getting in the public area I developed a pretty effective test for seeing if the lambda sensor on the cat equiped cars was still working as it should - it's been refered to ever since as the wooo waaaa test for some strange reason I've never understood 

Your lambda sensor can be found under the car in the main downpipe before it splits into 2 and after the heat shield.

Proof test is to rev the engine to 2000 rpm when warm (no good trying to do it from cold as the ECU is in control not the lambda) and hold your foot absolutely still on the throttle (some funny sound effects next hope you follow)

"Perfect" lambda (the engine will hold a perfect steady number of revs and sound won't change).

like this (say it out loud)

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

"Iffy" Lambda (the engine will NOT hold a perfect steady number of revs and sound will rise and fall quickly over time).

like this (say it out loud)

wooooowaaaaaawooooowaaaaawoooooowaaaaawooooowaaaa

"Had it" lambda (the engine will very very slowly to cycle rpm wise and the sound changing just over a long period)

like this (say it out loud)

woooo ooooo oooo waaaa waaaa waaaaa wooooo wooooo woooo

"Terminal" Lambda (F*cked) (the engine will appear to hold a steady number of revs unless you hold it for a while and then you'll realise the sound is slowly changing just over a long period)

like this (say it out loud)

wooooooooooooooooooooo waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa woooooooooooo

I suppose the key to above is

mmmmm is revs hold steady

woooooo is engine revs dying

waaaaaa is engine revs rising

and the length of the wooooooo or waaaaaa is the time it take to make up its mind the mixture is wrong and try to correct it

2000 rpm normally shows up the problem but I have seen them perfect at 2000 and knackered at 3000 so repeat the test at 2000 3000 and 4000, don't do it on the driveway unless you live miles from anywhere and have an understanding family

Vauxhall charge 125 + vat for theirs

Several aftermarket versions are avaliable some with leads and plugs others with just leads that you splice into your own lead on the existing lambda.......

I know that might sound difficult but it is as easy as ABC and believe me it is a lot easier than trying to re-route a new sensor behind the heat shields if you buy one with a plug on!!!!

You will be amazed at the difference it makes to performance and fuel consumption.

Report back

[tbirdbooboo]

wow , cool - had heard of the test but never really understood what it was all about so im going to go and check it out this evening .... got a few things to do to my tbird tonight but will report back around 11ish . Nice one buddy

[bstardchild]

wow , cool - had heard of the test but never really understood what it was all about so im going to go and check it out this evening .... got a few things to do to my tbird tonight but will report back around 11ish . Nice one buddy

Cool you have one of these too?

[tbirdbooboo]

ha ha yeah i have one of those -

i stoved it though last year so im currently doing some work on her - fingers crossed will have her back on the road end of this year.

as for the carlton (land barge/ canal boat ) lol did that woowaa test at 2k,3k and 4k   she sits at the rpm going waaaaaaaaaa ( a steady tickover ) and i could hear what i think is the the back pressure from the exhaust like a deep deep cough going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaburpwaaaaaburpwaaaaaaa and it felt like it was starting at the back of the exhaust and then the next kind of rumble worked its way towards the front of the exhaust and so on.  i dont know if this makes any sence . the revs seem to hold absolutly fine at each rpm i tested but it was just this sort of rumble that i noticed.      one thing i have done also whilst trying to get her to run right is remove the cats and put de cat pipes in so i expect that may be it.

[bstardchild]

as for the carlton (land barge/ canal boat ) lol did that woowaa test at 2k,3k and 4k   she sits at the rpm going waaaaaaaaaa ( a steady tickover ) and i could hear what i think is the the back pressure from the exhaust like a deep deep cough going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaburpwaaaaaburpwaaaaaaa and it felt like it was starting at the back of the exhaust and then the next kind of rumble worked its way towards the front of the exhaust and so on.  i dont know if this makes any sence . the revs seem to hold absolutly fine at each rpm i tested but it was just this sort of rumble that i noticed.      one thing i have done also whilst trying to get her to run right is remove the cats and put de cat pipes in so i expect that may be it.

Right so from totally std no modifications you've coughed it's running de-cat pipes   Anything else you want to bring up before we move on 

So you have a missfire being caused somewhere by something but it doesn't sound like it's the primary cause for your aparent poor performance

[tbirdbooboo]

lol um having a good think now, no there is nothing else thats been changed. :-)

when i was doing that test last night i thought i could hear a air leak at arouns 2500-3500 rpm like a hissssssss that got louder, i had a right good look under the bonnet with her running and get the revs high and all i could hear was what i believe is the timing chain - wow thats loud.  also theres a black round thingy under the 'duel ram ' plate which has a arm coming out - this controls the buterfly in the manifold - could feel a very prenounced rattle in it / on it / through it. duel ram works as that what i can feel kicking in at 4k and its like a bloody turbo, put you in your seat but then at 5000-5500k its restricted again so you cant do much lol

[bstardchild]

lol um having a good think now, no there is nothing else thats been changed. :-)

No after market air filter malarky then?

when i was doing that test last night i thought i could hear a air leak at arouns 2500-3500 rpm like a hissssssss that got louder, i had a right good look under the bonnet with her running and get the revs high and all i could hear was what i believe is the timing chain - wow thats loud.  also theres a black round thingy under the 'duel ram ' plate which has a arm coming out - this controls the buterfly in the manifold - could feel a very prenounced rattle in it / on it / through it. duel ram works as that what i can feel kicking in at 4k and its like a bloody turbo, put you in your seat but then at 5000-5500k its restricted again so you cant do much lol

OK lets concentrate on the dual ram for a bit - ignoring the kick at 4K cos I think whilst that's telling you it's working it's by no mean conclusive enough for me - been there and done that  

If the flap is closing due to not enough vac after 4000 to maintain it open then you aren't gonna hit much more that 5500 rpm and it'll feel like a limiter

The rattle worries me too as I've seen dual ram flaps where the screws have come loose (I've seen em where holes have been drilled in the flap and the flaps been removed completely - why I'll never know!!)

So first

1. take the dual ram cover plate off.
2. get a cable tie or two
3. open the dual ram flap by hand
4. cable tie it fully open
5. go for a drive and report back

I'll tell you up front it will be pretty gutless up to 3000 rpm and then gradually pull harder thro the 4K mark and then it should pull hard up to the limiter.

If it doesn't then whilst we can't be sure the dual ram is working properly we will need to look elsewhere to discover why your car can't beat a corsa 1.2 SXI

[tbirdbooboo]

right just done that, i pushed the little arm bit of the butterfly linkage into the round black thing and cable tied it so that the butterfly was open, took car up the road. 
car seemed smoother when i put my foot down , didnt sound like it was bogging out and there was no kick at 4k. no quicker or slower though. 
i.e  go along at 55mph in 5th, box it into 3rd and floor it and theres not a lot there , takes a while just to get to 60 lol

[bstardchild]

right just done that, i pushed the little arm bit of the butterfly linkage into the round black thing and cable tied it so that the butterfly was open, took car up the road.  
car seemed smoother when i put my foot down , didnt sound like it was bogging out and there was no kick at 4k. no quicker or slower though.  
i.e  go along at 55mph in 5th, box it into 3rd and floor it and theres not a lot there , takes a while just to get to 60 lol

OK I'm slightly confused

55mph in 5th and foot hard down I'd expect it to be slow - you've just disabled the dual ram

55mph in 3rd (it's a 100mph gear) so 3500rpm and it shouldn't take long to get to 60 but it's still below 4000 rpm

Try 2nd gear - ie can you get the car to pull hard to the limiter?

What I'm trying to establish is if the car revs and pulls cleanly quickly to the red line - ie it hasn't got the limiter effect you've mentioned

Last thing is you've cable tied the dual ram - there will be no kick as the kick comes from the change over and opening the flap - if it's already open there is no switch like changeover

[Jimmy]

 try removing the butterfly all together.... is something im considering doing myself in the Senny then completely clean out the
ICV

[bstardchild]

Maybe I should explain what the dual ram does and a rough how

It's a flap inside the inlet plenum that changes the effective length of the inlet tract

In doing this an engine which effectively is a peaky 4 valve per cyl type has an improved better low down power when it's closed and breathes normally when it's open

I played around years ago with the operation of the dual ram at different rpms and came to the conclusion that Opel got it pretty much spot on when they decided on 4000 rpm - almost  

the kick* is actually down to it opening fractionally too late so having a marked effect in terms of the change in torque and bhp - causing a step but it's quite nice as it normally indicates a working process

Some cars "kick" more than others but there are other factors that affect the kick - for instance things that increase the bhp accross the rev range all contribute to reducing the kick

- MKIII ABS club chip kicks far less than earlier versions but that doesn't indicate it's lower on bhp (in fact reverse is true)

- cars that have had a little fettling on the inlet tracts also don't have such a kick too

- overbored OE TB's also reduce the kick (although they have a slight downside)

- Any changes to exhaust system - de-cat or scorpion type system

[bstardchild]

try removing the butterfly all together.... is something im considering doing myself in the Senny then completely clean out the
ICV

Cable tie it fully open - drive the car for a few days see how you like it and if that changes your mind

from 2000 rpm to 3500 rpm it's rubbish

[tbirdbooboo]

right then how you doing :-) . have been doing as you said and drove around a lot this weekend with it cabltied fully open.

car seems a little lumpy sometimes under 3k - this is not all the time and hard to sence sometimes so i think i may have a slight missfire somewehre . when it come upto 3500-4k it starts getting better and now rather than topping out at 5500 it goes all the way to 6500 :- ) ;-) ;-)    got 64mph out of 2nd but she is still very very gutless even at the top end range of the revs .

[bstardchild]

right then how you doing :-) . have been doing as you said and drove around a lot this weekend with it cabltied fully open.

car seems a little lumpy sometimes under 3k - this is not all the time and hard to sence sometimes so i think i may have a slight missfire somewehre . when it come upto 3500-4k it starts getting better and now rather than topping out at 5500 it goes all the way to 6500 :- ) ;-) ;-)    got 64mph out of 2nd but she is still very very gutless even at the top end range of the revs .

OK if with the dual ram cable tied she revs out to 6500 and with the cable tie removed she doesn't pull past 5500 then something isn't right with dual ram operation - what niggles me is you still say it seems gutless at the top end so it's more than just a dual ram issue

And if it's flat then it's going to be either air can't get in or air can't get out

Can only really be collapsed silencer inernals - is it an OE rear box or a walker unit

[tbirdbooboo]

ok im starting to get you, where would i find a diagram that shows the vacuum stup so i know for sure its plumbed in correctly?

the exhaust has the standard middle silencer thingys and then the 2 pipes go direct into the back box which has 1 round exit on it .

[bstardchild]

ok im starting to get you,

  - Excellent

where would i find a diagram that shows the vacuum stup so i know for sure its plumbed in correctly?

No diagram that I know off - if I had loads of spare time I'd do one but we have already established you have a non aircon car - Yes? please note I mean a never ever had AC car as opposed to a had it once and bit removed as this is a very important factor

the exhaust has the standard middle silencer thingys and then the 2 pipes go direct into the back box which has 1 round exit on it .

ooops - that's not right!!! Pictures please 

[bstardchild]

Walker mid boxes and tail boxes are rather prone to internal collapse leading to a lot of restriction to exhaust gas exiting

http://www.senator24v.co.uk/midbox.htm

Back boxes are even worse - I hav e pictures but they are very poor quality and not worth hosting!!!