Carlton estate/ senny front?

[supercub]

bloody hell      thats wicked!!   I doubt ill do it to my diamond... id prefer to buy a 3.0 and do it to that if poss....   Too much hassle getting a 3.0 in mine...

That one with the 4.0 got me thinking... Is there enough meat in the 24valve block to actually bore it out that far?   Or has it been stroked too?

[carlton_mad]

just stroked!!!

at least the manzel m4000 ones are but try and find one of those!!

[U.D. - Omega DTM Rep]

That one with the 4.0 got me thinking... Is there enough meat in the 24valve block to actually bore it out that far?   Or has it been stroked too?

You will only manage a 4.0L capacity or larger on an Opel derived straight six by doing a mixture of both Supercub! Have you ever heard of the Bitter SC's? The reason I mention this exotic car is because a German company called Mantzel manufactured a 3.9L 12v engine for these exclusive cars that were based mechanically on the 3.0L Opel Monza/Senator A models.

Everyone knows how the Irmscher 3.6L 12v engine gained its extra capacity thanks to its 85mm stroked crankshaft and matching rods to make an Opel 30E engine into an Irmscher 3615cc item but not everyone knows that other tuning companies like Mantzel and even Lexmaul also dabbled in this 12v engine tuning game!

Mantzel firstly as Irmscher did to kept the standard Opel 95mm piston diameter size but increased their own crankshafts stroke to 90mm over the standard Opel's 3.0L - 95mm piston diameter x 69.8mm stroked unit. This gave Mantzel a slightly larger 3848cc engine over Irmscher 3615cc unit. However, tuning these engines by both of these aftermarket companies didn't stop there....

Mantzel went even further when they increased their engines piston size to 97mm combined with their 90mm stroked crankshaft with matching rods. This now gave them a new 3988cc but this wasn't enough for them. Next came 97.5mm diameter pistons with their 90mm stroked crank which gave them an even larger 4032cc engine. Mantzel offered this stroked engine in various states of tune in both 12v and 24v form. As the 24v engine became popular, Mantzel then went even further and played with a 4.1L version of their existing 4.0L product.

However, there was a problem. Because the Mantzel stroked engine conversion was on its limits of reliability because these conversions retained the standard cast Opel 3.0L engine block, these tuned extra capacity engines soon gained a reputation for failing for several different reasons. The 4.1L 24v was totally dropped from sale due to some really expensive multiple engine failures.

Irmscher on the other hand knew all about this engine block weakness (thanks to their input with the Omega 3000 24v DTM race cars) as the cylinder capacity increased and so thoroughly redesigned the Opel block to allow for some extra cylinder capacity tuning. Irmscher then went on to cast their own Irmscher 4.0L engine blocks to solve this potential nightmare from happening to them. So thanks to Irmscher's own stronger casting, the Irmscher 4.0i 24v engines had a 98mm diameter piston size with an 88mm stroked crankshaft with matching rods giving their new 24v engines a 3983cc.  

Also, while the big two above were battling this cubic capacity war out....a new company called BMT stepped up to the plate regarding our Opel six cylinder engines. This company BMT, is now known as Imotec today and they used to produce a heavily re-worked straight six loosely based on the Opel 30E/30NE that was a whopping 4.5L in cubic capacity!

From the very few bits of information I've been lucky to find out about this campany's engine, it apparently had 97.5mm size pistons and a new 100mm stroked crankshaft with its own matching rods to suit. The result was a 4480cc engine which is 4.5L in most peoples books. This engine conversion is extremely rare due to its extremely high cost but I've been told that it was perfectly reliable for everyday normal life driving. Well, that was my understanding during the translation from German text. I'm sure everyone is dying to know some more stats but all that I know is that this naturally aspirated 4.5L 12v was supposed to be good for 330HP/325bhp!

This power output above is nothing though as the DTM Omega 3000 24v's - 2994cc - 95.4mm pistons x 69.8mm stroked engine started out with just a modest 3.0L that had a mightly 360PS @ 8200rpm, then they played around with compression ratio's and got this engine to be trustworthy with 410PS @ 9300rpm. The DTM teams also tried increasing their cylinder capacity to 4.0Litres but this stroked race engine proved to be totally unreliable so they then dropped its cylinder capacity down a little to a 3.8L - 3780cc - 95.5mm pistons x 88mm stroked version instead and got a respectable 440PS @ 8000rpm. Further tuning saw the 1994 Omega Evolution 500's 3.8L 24v engine produce a mind bending 510PS before this race car was replaced by the newer V6 4x4 DTM Calibra's!

HTH!

[U.D. - Omega DTM Rep]

at least the manzel m4000 ones are but try and find one of those!!

They are about if you look for them Chris and are prepared to travel into Europe to get one! My old bottom end is now in a Bitter and Neil has one of these Mantzel engines in his LC Rep.

JM2PW!

[Jimmy]

Mind boggeling info there U.D 

Have you got a Vauxhall/Opel 'Bible' or something?? 

[U.D. - Omega DTM Rep]

Have you got a Vauxhall/Opel 'Bible' or something?? 

PMSL!!

Not got a "Bible" as such Jimmy....just a few books, some price lists, a handful of technical manuals, a couple of hundred Vauxhall/Opel brochures and just under 500 motoring magazine articles (last time I counted) all about Mk3 Carlton's and Senator B's mate!

It all comes in handy as factual reference material Jimmy.

HTH!

[Jimmy]

Certainly does 

[stealthstylz]

I had a Mantzel inlet fannymould on my Corsa GSi, bout as close as i'll get to any Mantzel parts lol. What sorta money do the big Irmscher/Mantzel sixes go for? I've got a Volvo 960 engine and Holset HX30 thats destined for my estate once all the other bits are sorted.

[supercub]

my god thats some reading there isnt it  

cheers for that....  although im guessing finding the required items to stroke it that far isnt exactly easy.   I.e a crank is going to be near impossible id guess...   Building one would probably cost more than sourcing and original haha...

Hmmmm  makes me wonder..   people have had good luck crossbreeding stuff before from other motors..  wonder if theres any other six's about with the correct throw on the crank and correct spacing...   bit of basic (ish) engineering could see good results id think.  Weather or not it would be reliable is another matter i guess....

Pistons are easy.   pretty cheap to have made realy or even get some mahle ones off the shelf..  hmmmm   thinking about it.. guessing this big scary 4.0 lump idea is out the window  

anyone know how far itll go without stroking?  and what sorta compression ratio the 24v runs?  and is the 12v any different in that respect?  Wondering about turbo.... ive dabbled before

[stealthstylz]

24v's look like a doddle to turbo. 12v's are hard as they're non crossflow so there's not much room to fit all the extra bits in. I'd go for a different engine altogether, the Volvo 960 straight 6 is all ally and has 400+bhp potential with a turbo on stock internals.

Matt

[supercub]

24v's look like a doddle to turbo. 12v's are hard as they're non crossflow so there's not much room to fit all the extra bits in. I'd go for a different engine altogether, the Volvo 960 straight 6 is all ally and has 400+bhp potential with a turbo on stock internals.

Matt

Yeah i do like a nice volvo....   But problem with that is it starts getting into a whole different realm...  Id like to start with a six pot car anyway as fitting a 6 in a 4 isnt as easy...  (more hassle than its worth for me.)  So starting with a 6 cyl carlton, and then tweeking from there.

Im thinking a 24v diamond would be the best bet.  The come up for sale sometimes and being the latest they tend to be a little more solid. (i hope) haha

[Jimmy]

Im thinking a 24v diamond would be the best bet.  The come up for sale sometimes and being the latest they tend to be a little more solid. (i hope) haha

Yep they solid if you find a gooden

[8valver]

How about a bmw 6 conversion? I think an m50/52 would potentially drop in very easy using omega diesel (m51) bits, although not offering much advantage over a 24v except for the later ally blocks, id love to have a shufti at the diesel mounts/subframe, and if the m50 goes then an s52 (m3 engine ~300 n/a bhp ) would too.

Ive seen a pic of a senator A with the e34 535i motor in, and they are supposedly bulletproof, and make damn good power with a blower on stock bottom ends.

On the Omenator/Senaton thing i think i prefer the stock senator front and flat arches, the irmscher conversion just doesnt quite do it for me, senators for me are all about that enormous grille. 

[U.D. - Omega DTM Rep]

What sorta money do the big Irmscher/Mantzel sixes go for?

For a complete working package (engine, airflow meter, ECU, etc, etc) anything from £2.5k for used 3.6L/3.9L units from places like eBay.de up to £10k+ for brand new 4.0L crate motors from companies like ASB Bartsch/Risse/Imotec/Sutii etc, etc.

what sorta compression ratio the 24v runs?  and is the 12v any different in that respect?

The C30SE - 24v engine has a compression ratio of 10.0 : 1 where as the 30NE - 12v's has 9.4 : 1 ratio.

HTH!

[supercub]

hmmmm  12valve could handle some boost 

[Jimmy]

senators for me are all about that enormous grille. 

Yep!! F'n A matey

[stealthstylz]

hmmmm  12valve could handle some boost 

I think the engines can, it's just fitting everything in. Might be easier if you made the 2.6 Dual Ram fit so the inlet gubbins are on the other side. Would still a pain though as everything is on one side of the engine (inlet manifold, exhaust manifold, steering box, power steering res, airbox, PAS resovoir etc)

Matt

[8valver]

hmmmm  12valve could handle some boost 

How about a dirty great eaton in that big space on the other side? Would be a cheap conversion (standard management, rising rate fpr), and sound mental.

Is there enough room if you moved the alternator(?) a bit? Ive never looked at a 12v bay in the metal

[stealthstylz]

Supercharger would be easiest though you'd still have to find a way to get past the distributor lol.

[8valver]

Heres a picture of one on a 24v http://www.omega-senator.de/forum/showthread.php?t=9572 just scroll down.

not a lot of info in the thread but from what i understand its an enem conversion??

[supercub]

thats gotta be easily doable aint it surely?  I do love a good supercharger...   prefer them over turbo just for the noise!

hmmmm,  remap possible on the vauxhall ecu?

[Jimmy]

hmmmm,  remap possible on the vauxhall ecu?

Pretty expensive, i had a look at that possiblity a while ago, found it was cheaper to get a backbox, k&n airfiter and some better injectors etc.....

[stealthstylz]

I've got a Pipercross sealed induction kit off my 2 litre if you want one of those. Its not very loud but with a good cold air feed seemed to pep it up a bit.

Matt

[Jimmy]

I've got a Pipercross sealed induction kit off my 2 litre if you want one of those. Its not very loud but with a good cold air feed seemed to pep it up a bit.

Matt

Awesome! how much you looking for it?? will handle a larger engine as appose to just a 2.0, ie: a 24V ??

[supercub]

Found a piccy of a turbo'd 12valver...  Its actually a screen print of a video on youtube..





<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5omNFlWWH-M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5omNFlWWH-M</a>